# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/401 "2016-01-01T05:24:37Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > I do not hold them all guilty of acts of terrorism, but they are guilty of not doing everything in their power to put a stop to the violence. They always have the same answer we know nothing, over a thousand Muslims have left the UK to join ISIS and Muslims declare that they know nothing. Ok, please tell me what I could have done to “put a stop to the violence” when it comes to terrorism. Please be specific and don’t just say something stupid like "speak out against terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/402 "2016-01-01T05:43:05Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > You mean the one that starts counting right after Islamists murdered 3000 people? And then you have the nerve to say "It is a pretty low debate tactic to game the numbers like that " 😕:eek: Unless you are trying to cook numbers you always remove the extreme values. But how about if we go back to 1980 [http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619](http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619) Notice that 90% of attacks were not from Muslims in the US? > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Do you know what irony is? A tit for tat stat strategy is the only reason we are even discussing anti abortion violence or the set of all non-Islamic terrorism in a thread about people’s negative reactions upon seeing a niqab. Half way through a thread where several posters justified that negative reaction due to some perceived predilection to terrorism by Muslims while ignoring terrorism committed by people they can relate to. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > A phobia is an irrational fear. There is nothing irrational about having negative feelings towards the ideology that the niqab symbolizes, when that ideology contains so many horribly brutal and oppressive components, and so many have died and suffered and continue to suffer under it. Even starting at 9/11 and all non Islamic terror attacks an american is 100 times more likely to die from malnutrition and we have a very low rate of that in this country. It is a phobia, it is irrational and it has very serious implications for peaceful Americans whom just happen to be Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/403 "2016-01-01T09:05:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. They are having a difficult time getting information from immigrants who happen to be Muslim and who view the police with the suspicion that many, perhaps most, discriminated-against groups regard the enforcers of the dominant power structure. > > We see the same lack of cooperation with the police among any group that feels they have a reason to fear the police. You are repeating the claim that New York’s Representative King attempted to promote, claiming that Muslims were shielding terrorists. However, in the U.S., with a less discriminated-against community of Muslims, the FBI has pointed out that Muslims have been responsible for providing the information to prevent the majority of planned attacks. Conversely, the group that is most frequently the victims of discrimination, blacks, are often perceived as not being sufficiently helpful to the police. Similarly, in France, while the majority of established Muslims have supported police efforts, the more recent immigrants, who suffer the most discrimination, fear and distrust the police. Slapping the labels “Islamic” or “Muslim” on a problem that has its roots in non-religious foundations is simply an easy way to make scapegoats of a minority group instead of actually trying to see and solve the genuine problems. Myself and others try to keep away from terms such as immigrant and Asian if we are discussing a certain group, good or bad we try to name them rather than use the term Asia that covers a massive area of many countries as for the word immigrant it is a whole melting pot of cultures, out of interest how long does a immigrant remain an immigrant some times we are talking 4th 5th generation to me they are British ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/404 "2016-01-01T10:28:39Z")
Yeah, thankfully there haven’t been any troubles in the UK involving Christian terrorists bombing civilians and the like. Oops, forgot to capitalize [Troubles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/405 "2016-01-01T10:53:15Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > And your quote comes from ? Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." Of course, if you want my absolute favourite passage for Biblical violence, it’s got to be Jesus command of: “those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” Because honestly, only Islam commands its followers to slay non-believers right? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/406 "2016-01-01T11:29:29Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Myself and others try to keep away from terms such as immigrant and Asian if we are discussing a certain group, good or bad we try to name them rather than use the term Asia that covers a massive area of many countries as for the word immigrant it is a whole melting pot of cultures, out of interest how long does a immigrant remain an immigrant some times we are talking 4th 5th generation to me they are British You avoid terms like immigrant and Asian to avoid addressing the sociological reality of a situation, but you are willing to blame some generic “Islam” without identifying which tradition or sect within it. That is simply using language to shape and maintain your prejudices. Islam covers a lot more area than Asia, so your claim of too much breadth is silly. As to your implication that people whose great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents immigrated to the UK are seriously part of the problem, you will need to provide some evidence for that. To the extent that people whose grandparents were immigrants are an actual problem, then the label immigrant might well apply. Immigrant groups who find themselves confined to ghettos by various acts of discrimination regarding employment, housing, etc. are more likely to hold onto their original traditions and beliefs without assimilating. Referring to them as immigrants can be appropriate when the general society continues to treat them as such. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/407 "2016-01-01T13:38:31Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Leviticus 20:10 > “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” > Deuteronomy 22:28-29 > "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; > > Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." > > Of course, if you want my absolute favourite passage for Biblical violence, it’s got to be Jesus command of: > “those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” > > Because honestly, only Islam commands its followers to slay non-believers right? That is the Jewish half of the bible O/T. The Christian half is the N/T ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/408 "2016-01-01T14:07:53Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > That is the Jewish half of the bible O/T. The Christian half is the N/T January 1st, and already we have a candidate for winningest post of the year. Great stuff! ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/409 "2016-01-01T14:16:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You avoid terms like immigrant and Asian to avoid addressing the sociological reality of a situation, but you are willing to blame some generic “Islam” without identifying which tradition or sect within it. That is simply using language to shape and maintain your prejudices. Islam covers a lot more area than Asia, so your claim of too much breadth is silly. > > As to your implication that people whose great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents immigrated to the UK are seriously part of the problem, you will need to provide some evidence for that. To the extent that people whose grandparents were immigrants are an actual problem, then the label immigrant might well apply. Immigrant groups who find themselves confined to ghettos by various acts of discrimination regarding employment, housing, etc. are more likely to hold onto their original traditions and beliefs without assimilating. Referring to them as immigrants can be appropriate when the general society continues to treat them as such. I think you will find that the situation in the U.K. is different to America We do not tend to go in for Ghetto’s. The estate I live on is 2,000 houses, 60% private 40% social housing. Nepalese, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Afro Caribbean, French, Portuguese, some E.Europeans and British, we mix in and get on with life, I am godfather to a Philippian boy that we had as next door neighbours, as I say we are a community and just get on with one another. One of the disservices the media was doing to the immigrant /Asian community was just to report crime as just immigrant/Asian crime not detail their country of origin, if I committed a crime in France I would be reported as English not European. In the U.K. we have been through a series of court cases concerning Muslims having sex with underage girls. To have reported this as Asian crime would have been a slur on all Asians, these cases were a national disgrace so some reports should have reached America ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/410 "2016-01-01T14:23:44Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > In the U.K. we have been through a series of court cases concerning Muslims having sex with underage girls. To have reported this as Asian crime would have been a slur on all Asians, these cases were a national disgrace so some reports should have reached America The UK is fortunate that sex with underage girls is limited to Muslims. Here in the US, it is more likely to be committed by Christians. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/411 "2016-01-01T14:28:14Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > January 1st, and already we have a candidate for winningest post of the year. Great stuff! As I follow the teachings of Jesus the N/T is my Holy Book, the O/T is the history of the Jewish faith, I am not a Jew I am a Christian. I do not have a problem with Jews (probably with orthodox Jews) and I support the right for the State of Israel to exist (and that is a whole new bag of snakes to beat me with) ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/412 "2016-01-01T14:34:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The UK is fortunate that sex with underage girls is limited to Muslims. Here in the US, it is more likely to be committed by Christians. Sadly not limited to just Muslims we have also some high profile cases concerning many celebrities, punch in Jimmy Saville and see what he was allowed to get away with, a complete and utter disgrace ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/413 "2016-01-01T16:54:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The UK is fortunate that sex with underage girls is limited to Muslims. Here in the US, it is more likely to be committed by Christians. True, and yet beside the point. There is absolutely no Christian equivalent to Rotherham. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/414 "2016-01-01T17:07:18Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > Yeah, thankfully there haven’t been any troubles in the UK involving Christian terrorists bombing civilians and the like. > > Oops, forgot to capitalize [Troubles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles). I’m not aware of any Christian terrorism during that conflict. Could you give me some examples of it? Also, I don’t recall any accounts of the Munich Olympic massacre referring to the perpetrators as “Muslim terrorists”. Do you think that’s how they should have been referred to? Should the Liberte De Quebec(apologies for the spelling) be regarded as an example of Christian terrorism as well? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/415 "2016-01-01T18:12:43Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > As I follow the teachings of Jesus the N/T is my Holy Book, the O/T is the history of the Jewish faith, I am not a Jew I am a Christian. Actually, the heretic Marcion was kicked out of the church around the year 150 for making that very claim. Now you are not only ignoring the social realities of the situation, you are denying your own (purported) theology. > [@T.M](#): > > I think you will find that the situation in the U.K. is different to America We do not tend to go in for Ghetto’s. The estate I live on is 2,000 houses, 60% private 40% social housing. Nepalese, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Afro Caribbean, French, Portuguese, some E.Europeans and British, we mix in and get on with life, I am godfather to a Philippian boy that we had as next door neighbours, as I say we are a community and just get on with one another. And yet, you, yourself have claimed that the “Muslims” are separated from the rest of you . [This article in The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2015/aug/13/muslim-ghettos-poverty-and-exclusion-in-birmingham-in-pictures) disagrees with your claim that there are no ghettos. In addition, scholarly works such as “Does Britain Have Ghettos?” by Ceri Peach in _Transactions of the Institute of British Geographers_, Vol. 21, No. 1 (1996), pp. 216-235, have noted that while the form of British ghettos differs from those in the U.S., they do exist. Heck, even Muslim baiter Nigel Farage claims that there are ghettos, so I doubt that your perception is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/416 "2016-01-01T19:46:00Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Right, and those people should not lose their rights because they wear symbols of brutally oppressive ideologies. They don’t have the right to not be offended, or to be free from criticism for displaying those symbols. No one should lose their rights, period…and critics are fair game for criticism. > [@](#): > > Or, for instance, a Klan Hood. The complaint is about the ideology that the symbol represents. That’s a poor analogy, since the Klan was an actual organization, with an application process, elected leadership, a formal statement of purpose, and the like. A niqab conveys none of this. If you’re looking for a symbol that conveys different messages to different people, and isn’t part of a formal organization, perhaps a Confederate flag is more analogous? That’s still not spot-on though, since it’s explicitly a symbol, and a niqab isn’t. > [@](#): > > Yes, anti-Muslim bigotry is a real thing. However, most of the violence against Muslim women around the world in reaction to the way they dress, or for the way they practice their religion, is committed by Islamist Muslims, not by non-Muslims. Sure, talk about that then. What we get here instead is people who want to bash Islam, full stop. > [@](#): > > The burqa and niqab are symbols of the ideology containing the codes of modesty and conduct that is so often violently enforced. As above, there’s a caveat that symbols means different things to different people. Otherwise, sure. > [@](#): > > Why are Americans required to have a positive view of Islam? Why should they? There are plenty of reasons not to. Apologies; right poll, but the wrong article. [This, the source,](https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/12/09/most-americans-dislike-islam/) is what I mean to link to. In shows that this dislike of Islam is coupled with knowing very little about Islam, and the people who dislike it the most are least interested in learning more about it. That speaks to an unreasoning, prejudiced bigotry. > [@](#): > > Anti-Muslim bigotry exists, but having a negative opinion of Islam does not make one a bigot, any more than having a negative view of Christianity makes one bigoted against white people (or any other race among whom the practice of the religion has been prevalent). 😕 Bigotry isn’t a synonym for racism. > [@](#): > > Not all of the elements of Islam deserving of criticism are limited to the strain represented by the niqab. Here is this particular discussion what I have been criticizing is knee jerk reactions, equivocations, and ridiculous false equivalencies. I’m not seeing those. > [@](#): > > You are jumping freely between Islam and Muslims, as if belief in Islam was an essential part of the very nature of the particular people who happen to be born to Muslim parents (or who convert to Islam). It is not. People stop believing in Islam every hour of every day. Being a Muslim is an essential part of people who self-identify as Muslims. And when people write and believe things like “Islam is a cancer to all the other religions who were capable of getting along with each other”, they’re talking about Muslims, not an abstract religion that can’t affect the physical world. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/417 "2016-01-01T20:27:39Z")
This just in-the Police chief of Munich, Germany announced that his men foiled a plot by 5-7 muslims to suicide bomb the train station. So the fear of muslim terrorists seems well-founded. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/418 "2016-01-01T21:01:02Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > This just in-the Police chief of Munich, Germany announced that his men foiled a plot by 5-7 muslims to suicide bomb the train station. So the fear of muslim terrorists seems well-founded. In the same way fear of home invasions or lightning strikes can be well-founded, sure - people do die from them, just a very small number. No one’s disputing that. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/419 "2016-01-01T21:20:13Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > As I follow the teachings of Jesus the N/T is my Holy Book… Then, as a good Christian, you would know that the quote from Jesus (you might’ve heard of him) was from Luke. Why is it that so many so-called devout Christians know less about the Bible than many of the atheists on this board? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not aware of any Christian terrorism during that conflict. > > Could you give me some examples of it? You are a sly one, my friend! Even though the war was primarily political, I was ready to prove you wrong. Except I couldn’t. Just a “nice” little civil war. Too many indiscriminate civilian deaths for my taste, but mostly attacks on the power structure, if you can call shooting young recruits on patrol the power structure. I kinda liked blowing up Mountbatten both because it was a direct strike at the Queen and because I never liked him, but again it was far from surgical and killed and injured people I had no problem with. Also, the Irish of both stripes were smart enough to not suicide bomb, at least on purpose. It’s just politics, not a matter of Heaven or Hell. A car bomb will make the same point. 😉 Truth be told, I am so glad that mess is over! They closed the charity down the block that brought over Catholic and Protestant kids so they can see that living together is possible. O’Neill’s Bar down the street in the other direction still has the Red Hand of Ulster painted on the door, but I always figured that was an affectation because of the owner’s name. We had a Chidope in a bar that had been a major fundraiser for the IRA, but nobody tried to hit me up for money. And the best was a news story in the early 2000s about a sewage corruption scandal in Belfast that had NOTHING to do with religion. Just good, ol’ corrupt Irish politicians, like have always been a part of my life. I wept at the return to normalcy. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/420 "2016-01-01T21:41:04Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > True, and yet beside the point. There is absolutely no Christian equivalent to Rotherham. If you mean in the sense of the Christian and secular authorities among the social workers and police effectively condoning the crimes by their refusal to act, possibly not. Otherwise, [not really accurate](http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2011/05/sex-trafficking-201105). (It would be interesting to see an actual breakdown of Rotherham perps who actually prayed five times daily or attended the mosque, Fridays, as opposed to guys who happened to have had parents who immigrated from Pakistan.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=22)