# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![TheAllSeeingEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/919ad9/32.png) [@TheAllSeeingEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheAllSeeingEye)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/501 "2016-01-04T09:26:22Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Can we do both? As a billionaire it’s actually compulsory. Not a lotta people know that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/502 "2016-01-04T09:35:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because Christians and Muslims behave differently? What Christian theocracies exist today? Do you see the Vatican, for example, stoning adulterers? There is a word for holding all members of a religion responsible for the actions of a small number of them ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/503 "2016-01-04T11:14:58Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > In my copy of the Qur’ān given to me by the Saudi Embassy in Wellington NZ it clearly states that women must cover everything except their face and hands and that men must cover from above the navel to below the knee. Please provide the _sura_[s] where this command may be found. ---
**Author:** ![TheAllSeeingEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/919ad9/32.png) [@TheAllSeeingEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheAllSeeingEye)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/504 "2016-01-04T12:03:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Please provide the _sura_[s] where this command may be found. Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31: And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women’s private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful. And He says in Surat al-Ahzab, ayah 59: Oh Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments close around them. That will be better, that they may be known and so not be bothered. And Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. From these two ayat of the Noble Qur’an and from the authentic sources of guidance provided for us, we can derive the following principles of proper dress and adornment for Muslim women: 1. The outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands. Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands). * * * As for lying and baking oaths in the name of God, there’s a whole novella dedicated to when it is appropriate. Browse for yourself! [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur’an,\_Hadith\_and\_Scholars:Lying\_and\_Deception](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/505 "2016-01-04T12:08:49Z")
Why am I not surprised that yet another hate site is being touted? ---
**Author:** ![TheAllSeeingEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/919ad9/32.png) [@TheAllSeeingEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheAllSeeingEye)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/506 "2016-01-04T12:39:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why am I not surprised that yet another hate site is being touted? Its just like 1984 round here, apply a label to it ‘hate site’ then because its now a ‘hate site’ there is no need to look at it and check if its a ‘hate site’ or if it contains factual content, because as we all know now, its a hate site and noone needs to look at hate sites. Did you hear, Jenny, Jimbob, Jake? It’s a hatesite and we mustn’t visit hate sites, coz the gubbermint said thats how you become terrorists, like Goldstein. And just to make sure you don’t the Thought Police, NSA Branch, are recording every site you visit for future reference, for your own protection, so be a patriot and … don’t go visiting any ‘hatesites’ y’hear? stick to scatporn and army recruiting videos disguised as Action Films, kids. In summary, thanks for the warning Sherrif, Ignorance Is Strength, gotta keep strong ! Its the equivalent of a proof avalanche, but what is proof compared to disciplining one’s thoughts? Muuuuuuuch easier ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/507 "2016-01-04T13:31:36Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31: > And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women’s private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful. > > And He says in Surat al-Ahzab, ayah 59: > Oh Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments close around them. That will be better, that they may be known and so not be bothered. And Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. > > From these two ayat of the Noble Qur’an and from the authentic sources of guidance provided for us, we can derive the following principles of proper dress and adornment for Muslim women: > > 1. The outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands. > > Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands). Those passages have been interpreted as you have, but it’s notable that the passages don’t actually say to cover all but the face and hands, or really anything close to that. To arrive at that conclusion requires interpreting the passages with certain cultural biases. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/508 "2016-01-04T13:41:01Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands). > > * * * > > As for lying and baking oaths in the name of God, there’s a whole novella dedicated to when it is appropriate. Browse for yourself! > > [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur’an,\_Hadith\_and\_Scholars:Lying\_and\_Deception](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception) Yes, indeed, you quote a bigoted website but in fact the Surah says not anything clearly a more traditional translation for you who need it. > [@](#): > > [Pickthall](http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/24/31/required-behavior-of-a-muslim-in-mixed-traffic-and-gatherings-of-males-and-females): And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands’ fathers, or their sons or their husbands’ sons, or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women’s nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed. the Quranic arabic of the surah does not make any specific statement at all as what the clothing is, the words are not specific other than ‘covering the bosom’ which is clear enough. so your post that tom called out was a falsehood. Of course the repeating the smear about lying for God, the new Elder Propotocals type discourse to put on the muslims is clear. > [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > Its just like 1984 round here, apply a label to it ‘hate site’ then because its now a ‘hate site’ Nothing about the great novel 1984 has anything to do with people pointing out and being critical of a site well know for its religious bigotry, its half truth claims and its distortions. It is rather closer to the spirit of the behavior that George Orwell criticised, your response trying to avoid the criticism by hand waving and language distraction. Ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/509 "2016-01-04T13:50:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Those passages have been interpreted as you have, but it’s notable that the passages don’t actually say to cover all but the face and hands, or really anything close to that. To arrive at that conclusion requires interpreting the passages with certain cultural biases. Last weekend, I saw an excellent show on Muslim feminists. (I’ll have to look it up–those things tend to linger online.) One of the major characters was a mature scholar of the Quran who pointed out that most of the “rules” handed down reflect the societies interpreting them. She said that actually studying the Quran revealed nonspecific guidelines. This lady dressed in the Western fashion. She ran conferences & seminars with Muslim ladies from all over. Some dressed “Western”, others added a hijab (which can be an elegant accessory) and one lady veiled part of her face. But they were all studying & speaking out. As I said, I’ll try to find more information on this excellent program. The lesson of this thread? No, “Americans” aren’t losing it with Muslims. Those few who’ve been prejudiced for years haven’t changed. And other countries also have some bigots. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/510 "2016-01-04T14:01:09Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31: > And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women’s private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful. > > And He says in Surat al-Ahzab, ayah 59: > Oh Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments close around them. That will be better, that they may be known and so not be bothered. And Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. > > From these two ayat of the Noble Qur’an and from the authentic sources of guidance provided for us, we can derive the following principles of proper dress and adornment for Muslim women: > > 1. The outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands. > > Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands). > > * * * > > As for lying and baking oaths in the name of God, there’s a whole novella dedicated to when it is appropriate. Browse for yourself! > > [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur’an,\_Hadith\_and\_Scholars:Lying\_and\_Deception](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception) You need to learn how to differentiate between what is written and what is an interpretation of what is written. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/511 "2016-01-04T15:29:05Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > Allah the Exalted says in Surat an-Noor, ayah 31: > And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their veils over their (necks and) bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no knowledge of women’s private parts. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn you all to Allah in repentance, O believers, that you may be successful. > > And He says in Surat al-Ahzab, ayah 59: > Oh Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments close around them. That will be better, that they may be known and so not be bothered. And Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. > > From these two ayat of the Noble Qur’an and from the authentic sources of guidance provided for us, we can derive the following principles of proper dress and adornment for Muslim women: > > 1. The outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands. > > Surat an-Noor, ayah 31 (quoted above) contains a clear command that a woman’s natural beauty and her adornment are to be concealed from strangers, except that which might show unintentionally (i.e. parts of the dress or ornaments) or which show as a matter of course because it is not prohibited that they be shown (i.e. the face and the hands). > > * * * > > As for lying and baking oaths in the name of God, there’s a whole novella dedicated to when it is appropriate. Browse for yourself! > > [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur’an,\_Hadith\_and\_Scholars:Lying\_and\_Deception](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception) According to the Quran woman are not commanded to cover their faces. Which begs the question why some Muslim insist that a facial vale is commanded by their religion when they leave the home. Going by memory I believe the Quran commands woman to cover their faces during prayer so that their adornments do not distract men who are praying ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/512 "2016-01-04T15:33:42Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > You’d have to be an idiot not to judge someone by their attire–or, at least make some useful inferences using appearance. > > While attire/appearance is not everything, it turns out it can often say a great deal about someone. > > Can you think of a single culture in the entire world where appearance is not part of public behavior? > > Where did this idea come from that we “shouldn’t judge by appearance,” except as a shorthand to say that appearance is not the only way by which we should judge someone, and that it can occasionally lead to an incorrect assumption? > > More often than not, appearance is a pretty darn useful way to pick up clues about an individual. Ummm… Don’t judge a book by it’s cover? Never heard of that? Information based on \*assumptions \*derived from appearance or attire usually, not occasionally, wrong. That’s why prejudice by appearance not regarded as a good way to judge a person, though maybe it’s a good way to judge their attire? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/513 "2016-01-04T15:35:45Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > In my copy of the Qur’ān given to me by the Saudi Embassy in Wellington NZ it clearly states that women must cover everything except their face and hands and that men must cover from above the navel to below the knee. This gentleman has apparently been banned, but this being the SDMB I feel compelled to point out that there is no Saudi embassy in Wellington, New Zealand. There is a consulate in Auckland. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/514 "2016-01-04T15:45:58Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > … Going by memory I believe the Quran commands woman to cover their faces during prayer so that their adornments do not distract men who are praying Your ‘memory’ is as wrong as your other pubbish claims repeated about muslim dress. there is no thing in the quran about the face and it is only the injunctio to be modest in praying - this leads some women - as in the Christian traditions (orthodox, catholic) to cover their heads in praying. at least the readers can trust your consistency in error and invention > [@Plumpudding](#): > > Ummm… Don’t judge a book by it’s cover? Never heard of that? Information based on \*assumptions \*derived from appearance or attire usually, not occasionally, wrong. That’s why prejudice by appearance not regarded as a good way to judge a person, though maybe it’s a good way to judge their attire? It is also the habit of those fervently asserts the black african cooties make their descendants inferior… judging on superficialities and erecting facades of pseudo reason to justify the conclusion > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This gentleman has apparently been banned, but this being the SDMB I feel compelled to point out that there is no Saudi embassy in Wellington, New Zealand. There is a consulate in Auckland. it was clearly a troll so no surprise ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/515 "2016-01-04T15:55:58Z")
> [@TheAllSeeingEye](#): > > In my copy of the Qur’ān In my copy of the Bible it says that non-believers should be killed. For instance: > [@](#): > > If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. > > Deuteronomy 17 Quoting religious texts is fun! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/516 "2016-01-04T15:57:36Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > According to the Quran woman are not commanded to cover their faces. Which begs the question why some Muslim insist that a facial vale is commanded by their religion when they leave the home. Going by memory I believe the Quran commands woman to cover their faces during prayer so that their adornments do not distract men who are praying Many Muslim women cover their heads or faces because they think it’s just like how we in the West cover certain parts of our bodies too - for modesty and privacy. And you use “beg the question” wrong. Don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/517 "2016-01-04T16:02:58Z")
the niqab is quite rare so let us not confuse the hidjab with it ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/518 "2016-01-04T17:27:56Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the niqab is quite rare so let us not confuse the hidjab with it Actually…that’s an interesting point. **Ramira** , do you by any chance have some numbers on the percentages of self-identifying Muslim women worldwide who regularly wear hijab, niqab, etc? (I imagine they’d be hard to come by and of problematic accuracy, but I’m curious.) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/519 "2016-01-04T17:44:55Z")
no I do not think any such reliable numbers exist. but outside of the Gulf it is rare and even in our local dialects people call it Wahhabe or Saudi. Or even ninja ([yes even amongst ourselves see the syrian cartoon from 2007](https://adiamondinsunlight.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/hijab-fashion-shami-style/)) hidjab have become more common since the 1970s but there is great variation ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/520 "2016-01-04T18:25:45Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > According to the Quran woman are not commanded to cover their faces. Which begs the question why some Muslim insist that a facial vale is commanded by their religion when they leave the home. Going by memory I believe the Quran commands woman to cover their faces during prayer so that their adornments do not distract men who are praying As with Mosaic law and Old Testament traditions, one finds an interesting combination of defenses for areas where the religion and modern society seem to be at odds. When the traditions are perceived as being inappropriate, the texts are parsed with so fine an interpretation they don’t end up meaning anything. When the text is perceived as inappropriate, the argument is made that the practical traditions are not as severe. With respect to modesty of dress, it would be highly inaccurate to suggest that Islam, in its general practice, has been relatively overbearing in coercing women to dress modestly and punishing them for not adhering to a very strict standard. Not every site lobbying for a position of extreme severity in forcing women to cover up is a “hate site,” and it’s pure bullshitting bluster to pretend the average expression of Islam based on the average interpretation of the Qur’an (not to mention even more severe Hadith additions) permits women to have much freedom of dress at all. Here’s the [first cite](https://islamqa.info/en/2198)I found at random…but if you would like an alternate way to be convinced at the oppressive way in which Islam coerces women to dress, feel free to look up photos from most Muslim majority nations… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=27)