# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/561 "2016-01-05T07:15:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I take it you will be citing the correct places to find out what the average practice of Islam is based on some sort of reasonable average recommendation from sort of reasonably accepted leader? No as the idea has no sense any more than the idea of the citation to ‘the average christian’ covering every christian from the Nigeria to the Ecuador, from the Nigerian protestant to the Ecuadoran catholic. It is a stupid thing, showing gross ignorance. > [@](#): > > Post a cite, please. Simply mocking another poster without offering alternative evidence in the hope that bluster substitutes for debate is pitiful. Vapid, even. No what is stupid and vapid is making sweeping assertions and showing that you have not even a basic idea about the way the religion works, the diversity of its schools, or even the ordinary practice in some leading countries. Requests and assertions that if made about a religion more famliar, like the christianity would immediately be obvious as grotesquely simple minded and illogical. > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not the clothing option, it’s the ability to choose. Super, and since there are three countries in the islamic world - they are the Sudan, the Saudis and the Iran, that have the actual legal restrictions on the choice of the clothing for us, well then you will then slink away in shame at your gross ignorance, yes? > [@Magiver](#): > > I need a cite for a fatwah? More you need an education to understand that a fatwah is nothing more than opinion issued by a preacher (self-appointed). > [@](#): > > The Westboro Baptist Church is about as obnoxious as you get in the US and the worst they can drum up are signs. And declarations. As any fatwa is not more than that in 99% of the islamic world legal systems - it has no force of law in the civil codes and so no force of ‘law’ with the courts or the police - there is in fact no difference at all. Your confusion and ignorance do not make it law. > [@tomndebb](#): > > A _fatwah_ is nothing more than a legal instruction It is not even that in fact, it is an opinion on the religious ‘law’ but excepting the Saudi system and for them even only authorized issuers, it has no force of any law as that a court would enforce. > [@](#): > > We do see Anglican bishops issuing instructions and the fact that they are not issued in Arabic with the label _fatwah_ does not make them less of legal instructions. legal in the idea of the reilgious opinion. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Been to all four. LOL. > Try being a Muslim woman in any of them and wear a skimpy little nothing as you parade around. What is ignorant is you making this statement. On the beaches of the Tunis, the Morocco, the Turkey, the Lebanon women who are muslim wearing bikinis on their vacation. Your confusion and ignorance about what we wear and what is done only shows the superficial stereotypes and misinformation. so no I do not think the supposed visits to the indonesia or the turkey have given him any insight into what the muslim women can or do wear. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/562 "2016-01-05T07:28:32Z")
Here is another good resource of christian terrorist acts. [http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/Right-Wing-Plots-Acts-Conspiracies-1995-2015.pdf](http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/Right-Wing-Plots-Acts-Conspiracies-1995-2015.pdf) Also note this call to violence that while the original site finally did remove it proves that the claim that Christian church leaders are not making calls to violence is false. [http://defendchristians.org/commentary/im-islamaphobic-are-you/](http://defendchristians.org/commentary/im-islamaphobic-are-you/) > [@](#): > > 3.) Violence: The only thing that is biblical and that 1400 years of history has shown to work is overwhelming Christian just war and overwhelming self defense. This is from a minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. Note how the “Reverend” Gary Cass is calling for: > [@](#): > > the complete elimination of all human beings who are from Arab countries AKA genocide!!! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/563 "2016-01-05T07:36:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except nobody has made such a claim. You’re better off comparing the Christian communities in Nigeria to Muslim communities in Nigeria. > > You’ll notice how lots of people think of the Episcopal Church of the US and the Anglican Church in the UK as great examples of “moderate Christianity”. > > You’ll notice however that Peter Akinola, the Anglican Primate of Nigeria is hardly a moderate and has vastly more in common with his Muslim counterparts in Nigeria than he is like Justin Welby, the current Archbishop of Canterbury. This is CP, Nigerians are the black Africans so you know the opinion about them. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/564 "2016-01-05T07:45:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Super, and since there are three countries in the islamic world - they are the Sudan, the Saudis and the Iran, that have the actual legal restrictions on the choice of the clothing for us, well then you will then slink away in shame at your gross ignorance, yes? > . Exactly! And even in those countries, you blame the political leaders, not the fucking religion. It doesn’t matter if religion is where these leaders got their crazy notions from. Just months ago before same sex marriage became law of the land, I was never pissed off at the religion, I was pissed at the law makers for _using_ religion as their excuse to make laws against SSM. Don’t get me wrong. do some Christians piss me off with their evangelical BS? Sure they do. But I don’t write the whole religion off due to a couple of nutcases. Look, religion is like a tool. It’s up to the user to decide if they want to do good or bad with it. Choose wisely. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/565 "2016-01-05T07:55:56Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Exactly! And even in those countries, you blame the political leaders, not the fucking religion. It doesn’t matter if religion is where these leaders got their crazy notions from. > > Just months ago before same sex marriage became law of the land, I was never pissed off at the religion, I was pissed at the law makers for _using_ religion as their excuse to make laws against SSM. > > Don’t get me wrong. do some Christians piss me off with their evangelical BS? Sure they do. But I don’t write the whole religion off due to a couple of nutcases. > > Look, religion is like a tool. It’s up to the user to decide if they want to do good or bad with it. Choose wisely. Yes it is amazing how well Eric Hoffer’s 1951 book _The True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements_ still applies. While mass movements are a blend of nationalist, political and religious ideas. Hoffer makes two points great points I can think of off the top of my head that applies in this case. “All mass movements are competitive” and “all mass movements are interchangeable” Meaning that it doesn’t matter what religion a person is, or what it is. The type of person who will seek them out will end up in one of them. Of course there is a problem with more general biases and fear which results in tragedies with a real human cost like the impact of irrational islamophobia limiting the western worlds ability to help out the current refugee crisis. This type of xenophobia is truly painful for me to watch. The Muslims are not being good muslims and the Christians are not being good christians and while they trade blows from their fearful caves of hate lots of good people die. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/566 "2016-01-05T08:05:31Z")
Hey, this is a good thread - keep pedalling! ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/567 "2016-01-05T12:08:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not the clothing option, it’s the ability to choose. [Here](http://www.zalora.com.my/women/clothing/swimwear/) is where you can buy a bikini in Malaysia, should you, well, _choose_. [Here](http://www.zalora.co.id/women/sports/bikini/) is their Indonesian site, too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/568 "2016-01-05T13:49:29Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Look; this bullshit pretense that Islamic majority countries are even remotely parallel to western secular democracies in the oppression of women–and in particular how they can dress in the public square if they are a known Muslim–is…well; bullshit. Not sure who said they were “parallel” or what you think that means. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/569 "2016-01-05T13:50:57Z")
Just wondering - do people in those National Geographic countries where women walk around topless talk about how we oppress our women by forcing them to wear tops? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/570 "2016-01-05T15:32:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And Islam…which is a term that covers 60% of the world population is? > > Why is Christianity granted a special exemption? > > I am betting that it is only afforded this protection because of the relative familiarity of it to most posters on this board. > > The islamophobic rhetoric that is presented by candidates for President and by a large portion of the populations in both the US and European countries is due to this form of special pleading. > > Or are you claiming that Mennonite and Romma populations are recipients of this vitriol though the media and government actions at the same level of bigotry? I believe there’s been some miscommunication. You wrote “note how **Chief Pedant** ’s arguments conveniently ignore the tenants of his own religion”, and cited a Bible passage - assuming that **Chief Pedant** was a Christian. This is incorrect, **Chief Pedant** is an atheist. That is all. No special exemptions or pleading. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/571 "2016-01-05T16:50:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I believe there’s been some miscommunication. You wrote “note how **Chief Pedant** ’s arguments conveniently ignore the tenants of his own religion”, and cited a Bible passage - assuming that **Chief Pedant** was a Christian. > > This is incorrect, **Chief Pedant** is an atheist. > > That is all. No special exemptions or pleading. Already covered this, still applies to he in-groups for the attribution error. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/572 "2016-01-05T17:08:28Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Already covered this, still applies to he in-groups for the attribution error. Ok, as long as we’re clear as to the error of yours I was objecting to, which you are weirdly reluctant to acknowledge. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/573 "2016-01-05T17:10:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok, as long as we’re clear as to the error of yours I was objecting to, which you are weirdly reluctant to acknowledge. The error does not effect the point or claim I was making…as long as we’re clear about that I will admit to being wrong about him being Christian. Look at his responses, he was clearly making special exceptions for the predominate religion in his home country. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/574 "2016-01-05T17:15:18Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > [Nonreligious Questions](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/04/arizona-pastor-publicly-supports-death-by-stoning-for-homosexuals/) > > [Nonreligious Questions](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/09/megachurch-pastor-says-gays-must-be-put-to-death/) > > But only Islam puts out instructions calling for the death of people, right? WRONG in the UK thankfully we have strong laws to stop people printing that foul rubbish but I have heard some of my so called Christians comment that gays should be put down at birth, so I told them that I support woman Priests and Bishops as well as same sex marriage (and I do) far better to see them cough and splutter and go a funny colour than to rant and rave at them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/575 "2016-01-05T18:31:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Suppose, instead of a shroud, she was wearing a tight T-shirt that said, “Marriage = One Man + One Woman. Period.” > > Does that change your answer? So it’s evil to coerce a woman out of a tight fitting T-shirt? 😕 That runs counter to every teenage movie I have ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/576 "2016-01-05T18:32:54Z")
Well, the ones who get coerced out of their shirts are always the first ones to die in horror movies. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/577 "2016-01-05T19:02:15Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > at WalMart Well, that’s your problem right there. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/578 "2016-01-05T20:03:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Just wondering - do people in those National Geographic countries where women walk around topless talk about how we oppress our women by forcing them to wear tops? Where they exist, gender specific prohibitions of exposed nipples are indeed oppressive to women, and are vestiges of the puritanical, shame based cultural norms which we have mostly transcended. These laws are controversial and have been opposed and overturned in many places. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/579 "2016-01-05T20:08:55Z")
You know we have those here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/580 "2016-01-05T20:20:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You know we have those here, right? Depends on where “here” is. Where they exist they are controversial and [often protested.](http://www.vox.com/2015/9/16/9341015/free-the-nipple-naomi-campbell) (warning: horrible, dangerous, insulting female nipples) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=30)