# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/621 "2017-02-06T15:00:34Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Is winning the war against people who hate us so bad? What exactly had Iraq done to warrant turning their country into Somalia? We’re the world’s most powerful nation by a large margin. Even though we are probably the most benevolent hegemonic power in the history of the world, human nature assures that we will be hated by most of the world no matter how nice we are. Hatred of America is not enough to go blow up a country. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/622 "2017-02-06T15:48:16Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What does this even mean, exactly? I thought I had made it clear. The rapid rise of the Muslim population. It is rising at a remarkable rate in England (for example). Many Americans (rightly or wrongly) will take it as a warning and not want similar happening to them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/623 "2017-02-06T23:59:23Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > I thought I had made it clear. The rapid rise of the Muslim population. It is rising at a remarkable rate in England (for example). Many Americans (rightly or wrongly) will take it as a warning and not want similar happening to them. What’s wrong with a rising Muslim population? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/624 "2017-02-07T00:08:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is breaking news and we’re comforted to know not all Muslim females are subject to religious police for not wearing them. > > Thanks for sharing. You should draw a cartoon about that as a public service. Is there a point in that snarkish post? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/625 "2017-02-07T00:46:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What’s wrong with a rising Muslim population? Be specific. Prohibition against Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men, and prohibition against Muslim men from marrying women who are not people of the Book. One hopes that as Muslims westernize (e.g. the Nizari Ismailis) that this practice would eventually cease. Then there’s that whole anti-homosexuality thing. And occasionally sick opinions on slavery. There’s a lot to be said against most religions propagating, for they pretend to have moral authority from on high, but often their morals are immoral by any reasonable standard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/626 "2017-02-07T01:06:55Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Prohibition against Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men, and prohibition against Muslim men from marrying women who are not people of the Book. > > One hopes that as Muslims westernize (e.g. the Nizari Ismailis) that this practice would eventually cease. > > Then there’s that whole anti-homosexuality thing. > > And occasionally sick opinions on slavery. > > There’s a lot to be said against most religions propagating, for they pretend to have moral authority from on high, but often their morals are immoral by any reasonable standard. Polling (I’ve posted the cite before, and I’ll find out again later if you like) shows that American Muslims are more tolerant of homosexuality than American groups like Mormons and evangelical Christians. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/627 "2017-02-07T01:23:43Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > I thought I had made it clear. The rapid rise of the Muslim population. It is rising at a remarkable rate in England (for example). Many Americans (rightly or wrongly) will take it as a warning and not want similar happening to them. That is silly. The rise in the Muslim population of Britain is not going to affect the overall British population to any great extent.` Muslims currently stand at a bit less than 5% of the population and their Total Fertility Rate has followed the standard immigrant model, falling as the people assimilate with the larger population over the years. It is true that Britain has had a spate of issues with the recent immigrant populations who have tended to be rural groups from violence prone regions of Pakistan trying to make new lives in urban Britain. However, immigrants to Britain do not need to cross the Atlantic Ocean to settle there and there is no reason to suppose that the U.S. (or even the U.S. and Canada), will ever see a similar rise in an immigrant Muslim population. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/628 "2017-02-07T01:44:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Polling (I’ve posted the cite before, and I’ll find out again later if you like) shows that American Muslims are more tolerant of homosexuality than American groups like Mormons and evangelical Christians. Yup. Those are good examples that support my statement that “There’s a lot to be said against most religions propagating.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/629 "2017-02-07T01:52:22Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Those are good examples that support my statement that “There’s a lot to be said against most religions propagating.” But your “statement” is being used as cover for discriminating against one religion in particular, even in situations where practitioners of that religion happen to be **less** bigoted and oppressive than practitioners of the religions you’re not bothering to preach against. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/630 "2017-02-07T01:59:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Prohibition against Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men, and prohibition against Muslim men from marrying women who are not people of the Book. You seem to be utterly unaware that that “prohibition” is already being routinely ignored in immigrant communities. A French poll from 2005 found that around 80% of Muslims were “comfortable with people of different religions dating or marrying” while 59% would not object to their daughter marrying a non-Muslim. (This is born out in the fact that 25% of French Muslim women have married non-Muslim men.) Citation: Jonathan Laurence and Justin Vaisse, Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Changes in Contemporary France (Brookings Institution Pres, 2006), 43. ---
**Author:** ![Poto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ab992/32.png) [@Poto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poto)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/631 "2017-02-07T02:00:30Z")
Homeland Security had the power to screen all visa applicants, even interrogate them before entry. The Trump ban was lifted. Zero terrorists were identified since the temporary lift. You paranoids will just need to wait till one of them gets radicalized. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/632 "2017-02-07T05:00:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But your “statement” is being used as cover for discriminating against one religion in particular, even in situations where practitioners of that religion happen to be **less** bigoted and oppressive than practitioners of the religions you’re not bothering to preach against. First, show me the preaching. Stating simple facts of fundamental religious beliefs that run contrary to fundamental human rights is hardly preaching, particularly when my statement was specifically contextualized by mentioning other religions as also being culpable. If you think that I preach against Muslims, I suggest you come up with some examples in this thread or elsewhere where you believe that I have preached against Muslims. Let’s start with this anti-Muslim discriminatory screed: > [@Protests in Canada shut down US Consulate in Toronto and maybe Embassy in Ottawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-canada-shut-down-us-consulate-in-toronto-and-maybe-embassy-in-ottawa/778593/30): > > Many Canadians are Muslim, or have relatives, friends and co-workers who are Muslim. When they are harmed, it harms us, so when Trump and the brown-shirts act against innocent Muslims, it upsets us and we want to address the problem, even if individually none of us has any significant influence. > > In the matter at hand, a fascist is living in the White House. After many months of denigrating Muslims, one of his first acts as President was to strike a hateful and needless blow to innocent Muslims by way of a travel ban, which further promoted hatred of them by vilifying them. The day after Trump’s Muslim ban, a French-Canadian nationalist murdered six Muslims at prayer, and severely injured many more, which Trump used as excuse for justifying his Muslim travel ban, further promoting hatred against perfectly innocent Muslims, and empowering acts of hatred against them, as tragically evinced by a Quebecois troll turned terrorist. Trump is a stochastic terrorist with blood on his tiny hands and his brown-shirt sleeves. We are not willing to stand by blythely, despite not having much influence. I trust that you are familiar with Niemoller’s “[First they came for . . .](https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392)” poem that is memorialized in stone in the United States Holocaust Museum: > > > [@](#): > > > > First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— > > Because I was not a Socialist. > > > > Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— > > Because I was not a Trade Unionist. > > > > Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— > > Because I was not a Jew. > > > > Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. > > We Canadians, through our individual efforts, our Prime Minister’s efforts and government’s efforts, are speaking out. As current internet meme states" “[del]First they came for the Muslims[/del] _ **Not this time, Motherfucker!** _” > > . . . . > > On top of our regular compliment of immigrants and refugees, we took in an additional 25,000 Syrian refugees last year – not temporarily, but to become permanent residents and eventually citizens if that is what they chose. By comparison, the USA, which has ten times the population of Canada, only took in 10,000 Syrian refugees. I encourage you to do the math, for on a per capita basis, we took in 96% of the combined total of Syrian refugees taken in by Canada and the USA in 2016. On a per capita basis, the USA only took in 4% of the combined total, resulting in a per capita ration of 24:1. And that was in 2016, under the Muslim friendly (and in Trump’s opinion, a Muslim not born in the USA) Obama. [our Prime Minister is welcoming Muslims](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jan/30/justin-trudeau-muslims-quebec-mosque-attack-video). This is [Canada’s Prime Minister’s and Ontario’s Premier’s example.](https://youtu.be/LQeaimHDcEU)[We care](https://youtu.be/e48U2pmc8Do), and the first of equals, [our Prime Minister cares](https://youtu.be/NvTKtqODneQ). Second, you state that my statement is being used as cover for discriminating against one religion in particular. Please note that facts are facts and this is Great Debates, in which arguments are supposed to be built upon that are relevant to the discussion. I call out discrimination when I come across it. Remember that two wrongs do not make a right. A valid question was made, and I correctly answered it. That it goes hard against Islam is up to Islam to deal with, rather than for me to conceal. Don’t go sweeping the facts under the carpet. If you think that a debate should ignore facts that are both relevant and significant, then you and I disagree on what a debate should be and on how arguments should be constructed. tomndebb has put forward a relevant fact: “that “prohibition” is already being routinely ignored in immigrant communities.” (And yes, I very aware of and glad to see the trend --btw “challenges” not “changes”.) Let’s dig deeper. Is the prohibition ignored by Imams who preside at such marriage ceremonies, or is it that over time families and communities are growing more tolerant of women who have civil marriages to non-Muslim men? I think you’ll find that it is the latter rather than the former. I look forward to the day when there will be no prohibition and no social stigma associated with marriage outside of one’s religion, but with the religions of The Book, the dogma runs deep. (BTW, if anyone knows a legitimate Sunni Imam (but not a Shia Nizari Ismaili Imam for that runs into something similar to the “Mormons are not Christians” problem) in Canada or the USA who will advise a Sunni woman that marriage to an atheist man is not haram, and who will preside at the marriage ceremony (but not an Imam who is simply willing to turn a blind eye while the man falsely pretends to be a Muslim), please IM me with the Imam’s name and contact info.) Third, preaching against non-islamic religions would only lead this thread off topic, so don’t complain about my not going into detail about the many great failings of Christianity. I’d be glad to, for I’m an atheist who is greatly troubled by the political impact of the religious right here at home in the Conservative leadership race, and in the USA which has significantly contributed to the most militarily powerful and economically powerful country in the world in the little hands of a narcissistic fascist – but that is not the topic of this thread. If you want, by all means go dig about the SDMB for my posts that are critical of Christianity (I expect that there are quite a few anti-fundie posts) and link them or copy excerpts of them here, despite them not being relevant to this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/633 "2017-02-07T05:27:43Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > I thought I had made it clear. The rapid rise of the Muslim population. It is rising at a remarkable rate in England (for example). Many Americans (rightly or wrongly) will take it as a warning and not want similar happening to them. Okay, now lead the logic to its conclusion. The rise of the muslim population from 3% to 5% over the past 10 years is a huge problem that we should avoid at all costs because…? ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/634 "2017-02-07T07:34:05Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > We are judging people by their attire because we cannot identify them, their dress, means we do not know if that are carrying an assault rifle or a bomb remember that we are under the threat of a Islamist terrorist attack and London England has an Islamic population of 1 million+ You don’t know if anyone with a _bloody suitcase_ is carrying an assault rifle or a bomb. ETA: Didn’t notice this thread was this long when I replied to a post from the first page. Mods, please delete. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/635 "2017-02-07T15:16:53Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What’s wrong with a rising Muslim population? Be specific. In a nutshell, to quote Bill Maher last night it’s “lack of assimilation”. What is it with “liberals” that they can’t grasp the simple truths explained patently by Bill, over and over. If you’ve been missing out google Islam+thick liberals+Maher+Charlie Rose. There are plenty more informative clips available like that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/636 "2017-02-07T15:22:54Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > In a nutshell, to quote Bill Maher last night it’s “lack of assimilation”. He’s just wrong about Muslims in America – the polling shows that they’re more “assimilated” in terms of things like accepting and tolerating homosexuality, than evangelical Christian or Mormon Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/637 "2017-02-07T17:04:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > (BTW, if anyone knows a legitimate Sunni Imam…who will preside at the marriage ceremony There is no “presiding” by an Imam, this is a christian idea and practice. The concept is not in the religion itself. the copying of the practice of the christian type ceremony I have no objection to, but it is not the fundamental practice of islam, normally there is simply the marriage contract, al-3qd. For the religious marriage itself it is only necessary to have an 3doul register the contract ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/638 "2017-02-07T17:22:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s just wrong about Muslims in America – the polling shows that they’re more “assimilated” in terms of things like accepting and tolerating homosexuality, than evangelical Christian or Mormon Americans. Even if true, on the homosexual front, those migrating may well not be. In tolerant England (an example to the world) 71% of British Muslims thought homosexuality should be illegal. That’s seventy one percent. I was listening to LBC yesterday and the female presenter described the public beating of the woman in Indonesia, for infidelity, as “savagery”. People were queuing up on the phone-in to say what a disgrace she was to use that word, claiming she was Islamophobic and inciting hatred against Muslims. You really couldn’t make it up. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/639 "2017-02-07T18:04:29Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > There is no “presiding” by an Imam, this is a christian idea and practice. The concept is not in the religion itself. Thanks, Ramira. I appreciate your comment. So scratch the term preside, officiate, or conduct or any such synonym, and for this particular wedding replace it “with the guy who is one of the witnesses as is required under islamic law, and although not necessary in Islamic law also happens to give the khutba-tun-nikah, and although not necessary to Islamic law also happens to be an Imam, all as per the personal wish of the bride in this particular matter.” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/640 "2017-02-07T18:18:09Z")
So the bride is making her own requirement that is outside of the religion. That is her choice. The only requirement in the Sunnah is two witnesses, and the Hanafi accept 1 male 2 female It is this girls making her own life complicated, not the requirements of the Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=33)