# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/81 "2015-12-28T17:21:46Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well, and I think this is related to what elbows feels you’ve tipped your hand about is that considering a woman in a homophobic t-shirt as being analogous to a woman in a burqa is disconcerting to some of us as it implies you feel that either the burqa is roughly as incendiary as the t-shirt or the t-shirt is as unremarkable as the burqa. > > A woman in a burqa is wearing her religion on her sleeve as it were, but that’s hardly unusual and not particularly noteworthy nor does it necessarily provide insight into dogma as I assume progressive/liberal muslim women may choose to wear burqas as well. > > Someone in a shirt saying "“Marriage = One Man + One Woman. Period.” is already spoiling for a fight, is pre-emptively declaring disrespect for my person and attempting to impose restrictions on general society that have no affect on her. > > So, yes, I see them differently but I do not think that reveals a hypocrisy on my part. You may feel differently though I don’t particularly care if you do. Well, I would say that the woman wearing a burqa is also declaring disrespect for the values of the country she is living in. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/82 "2015-12-28T17:25:13Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, I would say that the woman wearing a burqa is also declaring disrespect for the values of the country she is living in. Which values? In the country that I and the OP’s niqabi (but not you) live in, our stated values include equality, liberty, and freedom of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/83 "2015-12-28T17:26:59Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > **Bricker** ’s example was more than a fashion choice, but an explicit political statement that openly opposes the equal rights of some Americans who see it. There are those that [argue that the wearing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/21/as-muslim-women-we-actually-ask-you-not-to-wear-the-hijab-in-the-name-of-interfaith-solidarity/?tid=pm_pop_b) even of the hijab is a bigoted and offensive message: > [@](#): > > For us, as mainstream Muslim women, born in Egypt and India, the spectacle at the mosque was a painful reminder of the well-financed effort by conservative Muslims to dominate modern Muslim societies. This modern-day movement spreads an ideology of political Islam, called “Islamism,” enlisting well-intentioned interfaith do-gooders and the media into promoting the idea that “hijab” is a virtual “sixth pillar” of Islam, after the traditional “five pillars” of the shahada (or proclamation of faith), prayer, fasting, charity and pilgrimage. > > This modern-day movement, codified by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Taliban Afghanistan and the Islamic State, has erroneously made the Arabic word hijab synonymous with “headscarf.” This conflation of hijab with the secular word headscarf is misleading. “Hijab” literally means “curtain” in Arabic. It also means “hiding,” ”obstructing” and “isolating” someone or something. It is never used in the Koran to mean headscarf. > . > . > . > Born in the 1960s into conservative but open-minded families (Hala in Egypt and Asra in India), we grew up without an edict that we had to cover our hair. But, starting in the 1980s, following the 1979 Iranian revolution of the minority Shiite sect and the rise of well-funded Saudi clerics from the majority Sunni sect, we have been bullied in an attempt to get us to cover our hair from men and boys. Women and girls, who are sometimes called “enforce-hers” and “Muslim mean girls,” take it a step further by even making fun of women whom they perceive as wearing the hijab inappropriately, referring to “hijabis” in skinny jeans as “ho-jabis,” using the indelicate term for “whores.” Why are they wrong, but the T-shirt critiques right? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/84 "2015-12-28T17:31:45Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, I would say that the woman wearing a burqa is also declaring disrespect for the values of the country she is living in. You’re certainly free to do so. I don’t know why you’d want to as it’s quite a stupid thing to say but that’s not my bag. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/85 "2015-12-28T17:35:43Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > **Bricker** seems to be under the impression that he has created a brilliant analogy wherein someone flaunting an offensive political proclamation in my face that challenges the fundamental tenets of equality and basic civil rights is exactly equivalent to someone wearing a garment from a different country or culture and minding his or her own business. This impression of equivalency is not correct. > And you’ll continue to read them. If you can’t find any I’ll be happy to provide some for you – I more or less already did, above. It’s not complicated. Some of us advocate a just and peaceful society in which people who don’t harm others are left alone to enjoy their freedoms and civil rights, whether they are gays getting married or Muslims wearing clothing that may be strange to some westerners. It’s those who belligerently meddle in other people’s business or exercise bigotry and prejudice against anyone who is not like themselves that I have a problem with. The logic here isn’t all that hard to grasp. And evidently some of us – although not I – argue that wearing the traditional head coverings is itself a message that “…promotes a social attitude that absolves men of sexually harassing women and puts the onus on the victim to protect herself by covering up.” So why are they wrong and you right? Do you just know better? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/86 "2015-12-28T17:44:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are those that [argue that the wearing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/21/as-muslim-women-we-actually-ask-you-not-to-wear-the-hijab-in-the-name-of-interfaith-solidarity/?tid=pm_pop_b) even of the hijab is a bigoted and offensive message: > > Why are they wrong, but the T-shirt critiques right? You forgot to quote this part: The new Muslim Reform Movement, a global network of leaders, advocating for human rights, peace and secular governance, supports the right of Muslim women to wear — or not wear — the headscarf. Which seems to align exactly with what I was saying about personal freedom and not meddling in others’ affairs. The writers of the article appear to be invested in a movement to modernize Islam, and kudos to them for doing so. Their objection isn’t to the niqab or hijab, but to the mandating of it. But tell me, how does any of this affect the yokels at Walmart who glare at or insult people in traditional Islamic garb? Are these yokels personally affected by the wearing of a hijab, or is it that said yokels are fully behind the Muslim Reform Movement? I would venture to guess that it’s more likely that said yokels are just a bunch of hateful xenophobic bigots who also hate a fairly wide swath of other minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/87 "2015-12-28T17:46:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You’re certainly free to do so. I don’t know why you’d want to as it’s quite a stupid thing to say but that’s not my bag. Really? You would not find it disrespectful for a woman visiting, say Saudi Arabia or Iran, to walk around in a tanktop and mini-skirt? Do you think angry stares is the worst she would get? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/88 "2015-12-28T17:46:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And evidently some of us – although not I – argue that wearing the traditional head coverings is itself a message that “…promotes a social attitude that absolves men of sexually harassing women and puts the onus on the victim to protect herself by covering up.” > > So why are they wrong and you right? Do you just know better? If I may try? As a white man in a Western metropolitan area, my opinion of how a given woman dresses is irrelevant, and to insist that my opinion does matter is close to the standard illustration of privilege and “man-splaining.” However, some Muslim women arguing that other members of their faith are not being served well by adhering to traditional standards, or pointing out that these standards are not as traditional as others might think, is perfectly acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/89 "2015-12-28T17:47:56Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > **Bricker** ’s example was more than a fashion choice, but an explicit political statement that openly opposes the equal rights of some Americans who see it. But nonetheless one that a wearer is free to make, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/90 "2015-12-28T17:49:17Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If I may try? > > As a white man in a Western metropolitan area, my opinion of how a given woman dresses is irrelevant, and to insist that my opinion does matter is close to the standard illustration of privilege and “man-splaining.” > > However, some Muslim women arguing that other members of their faith are not being served well by adhering to traditional standards, or pointing out that these standards are not as traditional as others might think, is perfectly acceptable. But we are not allowed to take anything from that argument or use that to form an opinion of our own… ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/91 "2015-12-28T17:56:22Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Really? You would not find it disrespectful for a woman visiting, say Saudi Arabia or Iran, to walk around in a tanktop and mini-skirt? No. > [@](#): > > Do you think angry stares is the worst she would get? To be clear, your opinion is that it’s appropriate to make a woman feel small and ashamed for having the temerity to wear clothes you don’t like because somewhere else women are made to feel small and ashamed for wearing clothes someone else doesn’t like? In what way is this helpful? How is our society or theirs made better by this attitude? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/92 "2015-12-28T17:56:23Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But we are not allowed to take anything from that argument or use that to form an opinion of our own… But why would pitying a woman trapped in a tradition too strict for the modern day world lead to anyone giving her dirty looks at Wal-Mart? That reaction sounds like blaming the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/93 "2015-12-28T17:58:50Z")
As I’ve said before, for me it is not about a women being opressed or not or to what level. It is about showing adherance to a particular strain of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/94 "2015-12-28T17:59:17Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Bricker seems to be under the impression that he has created a brilliant analogy wherein someone flaunting an offensive political proclamation in my face that challenges the fundamental tenets of equality and basic civil rights is exactly equivalent to someone wearing a garment from a different country or culture and minding his or her own business. This impression of equivalency is not correct. Of course it’s correct. What you are saying is the same as lots of people say - if you agree with my opinion, you don’t deserve any kind of social disapproval. If you don’t, or if you shop at Wal-Mart, then you deserve the same disapproval. As ever, I can tolerate anything except disagreement. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/95 "2015-12-28T18:03:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The other day while Christmas shopping at WalMart a Muslim couple was there. The husband was dressed fairly normal but the wife had the full length black outfit and had her head covered and her face partially covered. They got more than a few stares and they was many an angry look. > > Americans have been told to be tolerant but I think our tolerance is coming to an end. Trump may have been a little extreme but he isnt far off either. > > What do you all think? I’m not a fan of the full body coverings, but its odd that you frame this as American’s losing it, I’m assuming “it” means patience" with Muslims. How were those other WalMart shoppers affected by someone else’s outfit, I would ask them. Have they see the [peopleofwalmart.com](http://peopleofwalmart.com)? Americans dress a lot worse, I would prefer to have some full body hijabs for some of those people. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/96 "2015-12-28T18:05:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course it’s correct. > > What you are saying is the same as lots of people say - if you agree with my opinion, you don’t deserve any kind of social disapproval. If you don’t, or if you shop at Wal-Mart, then you deserve the same disapproval. As ever, I can tolerate anything except disagreement. > > Regards, > Shodan What? This post makes no sense. Did you read the thread at all? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/97 "2015-12-28T18:07:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The other day while Christmas shopping at WalMart a Muslim couple was there. The husband was dressed fairly normal but the wife had the full length black outfit and had her head covered and her face partially covered. They got more than a few stares and they was many an angry look. > > Americans have been told to be tolerant but I think our tolerance is coming to an end. Trump may have been a little extreme but he isnt far off either. > > What do you all think? So a couple of ding dongs in your local Wally World act like ding dongs and the other 300+ million of us are losing it? :dubious: Your tolerance may be coming to an end but mine has not diminished. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Americans dress a lot worse, I would prefer to have some full body hijabs for some of those people. I agree. Anyone who doesn’t meet my personal view of being “hot” should not be allowed in public or at least completely cover themselves so as not to offend mine delicate eyes. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/98 "2015-12-28T18:12:08Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Really? You would not find it disrespectful for a woman visiting, say Saudi Arabia or Iran, to walk around in a tanktop and mini-skirt? No. > [@](#): > > Do you think angry stares is the worst she would get? I have no idea. But if she did get angry stares or worse, are you advocating we emulate such barbaric behavior? Is this an adult version of “Mom, he started it!” and tit-for-tat ensues? Geez, I thought we were all supposed to have learned in kindergarten how to be the bigger person, but I suppose some were playing hooky that day. My job is to take care of me, not everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/99 "2015-12-28T18:13:57Z")
It’s more than just a couple of ding-dongs. I can point you to plenty of websites, none of which are Stormfront or Free Republic, that are lousy, and I use that term with feeling, with right-wing cowards who think your government should be dropping nuclear bombs on millions of people on the other side of the planet and revoking the American citizenship of any Muslims on this side of it. All because the idea of being exposed to a Muslim leaves them standing in a puddle of their own urine wailing about their feelings. As if that’s our concern. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/100 "2015-12-28T18:19:28Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If I may try? > > As a white man in a Western metropolitan area, my opinion of how a given woman dresses is irrelevant, and to insist that my opinion does matter is close to the standard illustration of privilege and “man-splaining.” > > However, some Muslim women arguing that other members of their faith are not being served well by adhering to traditional standards, or pointing out that these standards are not as traditional as others might think, is perfectly acceptable. Can non-Muslim women offer any opinions? The authors of the Post piece I say: > [@](#): > > Last week, high school girls at Vernon Hills High School, outside Chicago, wore headscarves for an activity, “Walk a Mile in Her Hijab,” sponsored by the school’s conservative Muslim Students Association. It disturbed us to see the image of the girls in scarves. Which of those high school girls may permissibly respond to the authors? (a) Only those girls that are themselves Muslim, based on a strict reading of the guidelines you mention above (b) Only those girls that are of color, because they lack the privilege that would prevent their offering an opinion (c) All of the girls, because girls–excuse me, “women”–are themselves inherently without privilege and thus do not suffer the impediment you describe (d) Any female student, even ones that did not “Walk a Mile” for the event, for the same rationale as (c) (e) some combination of the above [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=6)