# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/101 "2015-12-28T18:37:31Z")
No. We are not discussing who has the right to answer the authors opinion piece. We are discussing who has the right to criticize the clothing choices of women from different cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/102 "2015-12-28T18:54:13Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > No. > > We are not discussing who has the right to answer the authors opinion piece. We are discussing who has the right to criticize the clothing choices of women from different cultures. Surely the answer to that question is ‘Everyone’. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/103 "2015-12-28T18:57:44Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > No. > > We are not discussing who has the right to answer the authors opinion piece. We are discussing who has the right to criticize the clothing choices of women from different cultures. The high school girls were (presumably) at least in part American – they were certainly in an American school. Does this mean that the authors, women from Egypt and India, had no right to criticize the clothing choices those girls made? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/104 "2015-12-28T18:59:23Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Surely the answer to that question is ‘Everyone’. Obviously not, as evidenced by this very thread. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/105 "2015-12-28T19:02:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why are they wrong, but the T-shirt critiques right? In all cases, the people attempting to force others to conform to their own prejudices are in the wrong. There is no moral difference between forcing a woman into a veil, and tearing one off. No difference between despising and denigrating her for either choice. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/106 "2015-12-28T19:09:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are those that [argue that the wearing](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/21/as-muslim-women-we-actually-ask-you-not-to-wear-the-hijab-in-the-name-of-interfaith-solidarity/?tid=pm_pop_b) even of the hijab is a bigoted and offensive message > Why are they wrong, but the T-shirt critiques right? Because the alleged “message” from the hijab is cherry-picked by the message interpreter and the message of the T-shirt is explicitly stated in plain English. Next stupid quibble…? (or do I have to insert a coin or pull a lever or something?\*) \*To place the parenthetical comment into the latter rather than the former category, let it me noted that I am now expressly stating rather than vaguely implying that your “argument” is on the level of the mechaincal generation of inanities by a device such as a Magic 8-Ball or a Chinese fortune-cookie print run. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/107 "2015-12-28T19:10:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The high school girls were (presumably) at least in part American – they were certainly in an American school. > > Does this mean that the authors, women from Egypt and India, had no right to criticize the clothing choices those girls made? My takeaway from the article was that the authors were more concerned that the girls were perpetuating stereotypes when they (the girls) thought they were showing solidarity. Reasons behind clothing choices are fair game, especially if the wearers are just putting on a costume for attention. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/108 "2015-12-28T19:16:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But nonetheless one that a wearer is free to make, yes? Oh, certainly. People should be free, in the legal sense, to wear clothing (or carry signs, etc.) with any sort of political or quasi-political message. Just another form of public speech, properly protected from state oversight. But not immune to criticism. If you’re going to overtly address the public, you have no right to expect that they not answer. The wearing of hijab or niqab, by contrast (or yarmulke, or turban, or bonnet), is not addressed _to_ anyone. Even if it’s seen as a statement about the wearer, there is no inherent and explicit message about anyone _else_ there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/109 "2015-12-28T19:26:44Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > In all cases, the people attempting to force others to conform to their own prejudices are in the wrong. There is no moral difference between forcing a woman into a veil, and tearing one off. No difference between despising and denigrating her for either choice. > [@](#): > > The wearing of hijab or niqab, by contrast (or yarmulke, or turban, or bonnet), is not addressed to anyone. Even if it’s seen as a statement about the wearer, there is no inherent and explicit message about anyone else there. In this case, though, I am offering up the article authors, who claim that the veil represents an ideology that most silences women by equating their bodies with honor. They say, if I dare paraphrase them, it’s not ‘tearing off,’ the veil that they seek – it’s criticizing the message the veil sends. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/110 "2015-12-28T19:31:45Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And you’ll continue to read them. If you can’t find any I’ll be happy to provide some for you – I more or less already did, above. It’s not complicated. Some of us advocate a just and peaceful society in which people who don’t harm others are left alone to enjoy their freedoms and civil rights, whether they are gays getting married or Muslims wearing clothing that may be strange to some westerners. It’s those who belligerently meddle in other people’s business or exercise bigotry and prejudice against anyone who is not like themselves that I have a problem with. The logic here isn’t all that hard to grasp. Do you feel the same way if the person wants to peacefully open-carry a handgun holstered on their hip while minding their own business? Live and let live? Civil rights for all? Or is that considered “flaunting an offensive political proclamation in [your] face”? Would you feel justified in trying to ban this peaceful expression, or at least state angrily at the person doing it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/111 "2015-12-28T19:31:54Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > My takeaway from the article was that the authors were more concerned that the girls were perpetuating stereotypes when they (the girls) thought they were showing solidarity. Reasons behind clothing choices are fair game, especially if the wearers are just putting on a costume for attention. “Fair game” for who? Are you also allowed to offer an opinion on reasons behind women’s clothing, as a white man? How about me, a Hispanic man? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/112 "2015-12-28T19:37:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you feel the same way if the person wants to peacefully open-carry a handgun holstered on their hip while minding their own business? Live and let live? Civil rights for all? Or is that considered “flaunting an offensive political proclamation in [your] face”? Would you feel justified in trying to ban this peaceful expression, or at least state angrily at the person doing it? There’s no such thing as peacefully being armed. A person with a gun is expecting it to be needed. But I certainly wouldn’t say anything angrily to a person with a gun, because you know, gun. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/113 "2015-12-28T19:41:54Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s no such thing as peacefully being armed. A person with a gun is expecting it to be needed. But I certainly wouldn’t say anything angrily to a person with a gun, because you know, gun. “Peaceful” in this post refers to “people who don’t harm others”. There are millions of Americans who go out every day wearing or carrying a gun and “don’t harm others”: cops, CCW holders, hunters, target shooters, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/114 "2015-12-28T19:46:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you feel the same way if the person wants to peacefully open-carry a handgun holstered on their hip while minding their own business? Live and let live? Civil rights for all? Or is that considered “flaunting an offensive political proclamation in [your] face”? Would you feel justified in trying to ban this peaceful expression, or at least state angrily at the person doing it? Doesn’t bother me at all. Everyone I know who carries has never needed to draw, and always takes the greatest caution with their firearms. But please, lock it in your car before you go to a bar; there are a lot of people who become assholes when they’ve been drinking and you don’t want one of them trying to grab your pistol. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/115 "2015-12-28T19:47:03Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > There’s no such thing as peacefully being armed. A person with a gun is expecting it to be needed. But I certainly wouldn’t say anything angrily to a person with a gun, because you know, gun. That’s not true: I wear a gun to shoot at paper targets. Are you suggesting that this activity is not peaceful, as you used the phrase in post #112? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/116 "2015-12-28T19:51:12Z")
Why do you shoot at paper targets? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/117 "2015-12-28T19:57:33Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > What? This post makes no sense. Did you read the thread at all? Yes, I read the thread. Which part of the post did you not understand? **wolfpup** denied that there was any equivalency between a niqab and a T-shirt. He was clearly mistaken - they are quite equivalent. The difference is that he does not object to Islam, but he does object to opposition to gay marriage. IOW it is simply the opinion that controls whether or not someone should be exposed to public scorn. If the idea is “people should be able to express their opinions without being glared at”, then it would logically consistent to glare neither at a niqab nor at a T-shirt with an anti-gay marriage slogan. If the idea is “speech has consequences, and no one except the government is bound by the First Amendment”, then it would be equally appropriate to glare at either. Consistency would requre either both are OK to glare at, or neither. As I said, the equivalence is quite close. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElderSign](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eldersign/32/8263_2.png) [@ElderSign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElderSign)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/118 "2015-12-28T19:59:05Z")
Gasp…Progressive Juan Williams said this BEFORE Trump ran for office: “…when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/119 "2015-12-28T20:03:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **wolfpup** denied that there was any equivalency between a niqab and a T-shirt. Oof, right at the start and you’ve already whiffed it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/120 "2015-12-28T20:05:45Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > Gasp…Progressive Juan Williams said this BEFORE Trump ran for office: > > “…when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.” Would you like to quote the context of that statement? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=7)