# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/141 "2015-12-28T22:50:46Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Some people consider it their moral duty to speak out against the display of symbols of oppression and supremacy. NM ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/142 "2015-12-28T22:55:08Z")
Sorry for the double post, my phone keeps screwing up. Anyway, what I was trying to say was that I must be doing my moral duty wrong then. I only speak out against oppression when the oppression want or need my help. The last thing I’d ever personally desire is for some nutjob deciding they need to interfere in my business, interjecting what _they_ think is right, regardless of my feelings, and then try to fight against their idea of my “so-called oppression.” Obviously, YMV. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/143 "2015-12-28T23:02:11Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Some people consider it their moral duty to speak out against the display of symbols of oppression and supremacy. Like, say, [this.](https://www.victoriassecret.com/swimwear/all-bottoms-mobile/the-bow-bikini-victorias-secret-swim?ProductID=271734&CatalogueType=OLS&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=39-127908399-2&cm_mmc=CI-_-Google-_-VS%20BRAND%20SWIMWEAR-_-SH-3386436U8XS) In all cases, all that matters is that people have the choice the live the way they’d like to. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/144 "2015-12-28T23:26:18Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > … > Anyway, what I was trying to say was that I must be doing my moral duty wrong then. … What you are supposed to be doing is glaring derisively at people in stores, making them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. It’s in the handbook titled 'MURICA. You must not have recieved yours. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/145 "2015-12-28T23:52:38Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > What you are supposed to be doing is glaring derisively at people in stores, making them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. It’s in the handbook titled 'MURICA. You must not have recieved yours. I thought in America we had “freedom of expression”. If someone wants to glare, glare away. If someone wants to call them an asshole for it, call-them-an-asshole away. Or, has something changed recently that I wasn’t informed about? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/146 "2015-12-28T23:52:57Z")
I mentioned the Amish earlier in this thread, and would like folks to consider how they feel when they see an Amish woman or man walking down the street in what is considered their standard dress. They stand out like sore thumbs, and probably attract quite a few stares. But, as I also noted upthread, it would be rare person who would glare at them. Without knowing something about the people involved, there is no reason to suspect a Muslim woman of being suppressed any more than the Amish woman. Or the Amish man, for that matter. Unless, of course, one thinks all Muslims are suspect, but that’s another issue entirely. Having said that, an open and free society such as ours should be ready and willing to help folks, especially women, who do get trapped by their families into assuming traditional practices against their will. I say “especially women” because women are often pushed into marriages and childbearing situations where they are dependent on a man for basic survival. And if the women are purposely deprived of education, then it’s doubly worse. So, let’s not pretend that there are no instances of families abusing younger members and coercing them into roles from which they find it difficult to extract themselves even as adults. The take-away moral, in my books, is MYOB on this matter, but if you do know someone who reaches out to you for help, be the kind of person who can help them without judgement or fear. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/147 "2015-12-29T00:17:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I mentioned the Amish earlier in this thread, and would like folks to consider how they feel when they see an Amish woman or man walking down the street in what is considered their standard dress. They stand out like sore thumbs, and probably attract quite a few stares. But, as I also noted upthread, it would be rare person who would glare at them. > > Without knowing something about the people involved, there is no reason to suspect a Muslim woman of being suppressed any more than the Amish woman. Or the Amish man, for that matter. Unless, of course, one thinks all Muslims are suspect, but that’s another issue entirely. > > Having said that, an open and free society such as ours should be ready and willing to help folks, especially women, who do get trapped by their families into assuming traditional practices against their will. I say “especially women” because women are often pushed into marriages and childbearing situations where they are dependent on a man for basic survival. And if the women are purposely deprived of education, then it’s doubly worse. > > So, let’s not pretend that there are no instances of families abusing younger members and coercing them into roles from which they find it difficult to extract themselves even as adults. The take-away moral, in my books, is MYOB on this matter, but if you do know someone who reaches out to you for help, be the kind of person who can help them without judgement or fear. Well said! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/148 "2015-12-29T00:49:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Why not shoot paintball guns? I’m sure one could buy a precision paintball gun that would require a similar amount of skill to deliver a paintball to a target 25 yards away that would also release the relevant endorphins to make succeeding at the task pleasant. I assume there’d be some ballistics difference from shooting a round paintball vs a pointed piece of metal and perhaps the difference is great enough to remove paintball from serious consideration. You know nothing, Jon Snow, about shooting – at least based on this suggestion. Paintball guns are nowhere near as accurate as firearms. Much of this has to do with the fact that the pistol has a rifled barrel, which imparts a spin to the bullet that keeps it stable by gyroscopic precession to a degree that simply can’t happen with paintballs. It’s also a more expensive proposition. (I grant that some types of guns require ammunition more expensive than paintballs, but I shoot either 38 +P wadcutters or .22. > [@](#): > > Regardless, I am skeptical that there is a significant number of people who are interested in shooting purely for the technical sport of it and that if there were, a new type of shooting that didn’t use actual bullets would develop much as how many arrows used in archery have blunted tips. It fascinates me that despite repeatedly being corrected on your factual misapprehensions and lack of accurate knowledge, you remain confident enough to argue, in effect, that you don’t know it and therefore it probably isn’t common. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/149 "2015-12-29T00:53:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is this a whoosh? In what universe is Juan Williams, 19-year Fox News veteran, a progressive? > > The .22-caliber firearms used in most serious target shooting - pieces like [this one](https://www.google.com/search?q=olympic+target+rifle&sa=X&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=667&site=webhp&tbm=isch&imgil=ZVT_la0Lxc_zBM%253A%253B3xg4adCovDaK7M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.army.mil%25252Farticle%25252F84968%25252FArmy_wife_Gray_wins_Olympic_gold_in_3_positions_rifle%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ZVT_la0Lxc_zBM%253A%252C3xg4adCovDaK7M%252C_&dpr=1&usg= __i7xZLjUd2ivqFlXbZkk8pJ13VaQ%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj43YjQxP_JAhVB4yYKHTvwC3cQyjcIJQ&ei=kq6BVvjMG8HGmwG74K-4Bw#imgrc=ZVT_la0Lxc_zBM%3A&usg=__ i7xZLjUd2ivqFlXbZkk8pJ13VaQ%3D) and [this one](https://www.google.com/search?q=olympic+target+pistol&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=667&site=webhp&tbm=isch&imgil=HaGDBQZNH-qGAM%253A%253ByvFsAXDcjkhZZM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.travel-golf.org%25252Fbest_22_caliber_target_pistols.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=HaGDBQZNH-qGAM%253A%252CyvFsAXDcjkhZZM%252C_&usg= __DR0Tm0PKhsvOLVxP-T4FhG5lF6E%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjAlPeHxf_JAhWDQCYKHaGvCwQQyjcIJQ&ei=B6-BVoD1JIOBmQGh364g#imgrc=HaGDBQZNH-qGAM%3A&usg=__ DR0Tm0PKhsvOLVxP-T4FhG5lF6E%3D) - are about as close to “not actual bullets” as you can get without going to gelatin capsules. You’re right, although I am not financially secure enough to be quite that serious. I use a Ruger Mark III. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/150 "2015-12-29T01:58:53Z")
A good compressed-air pellet gun can give much of the general satisfaction of .22 plinking, and the cost is vastly less. (Even Airsoft ain’t bad…and you can do that in your living room!) ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/151 "2015-12-29T02:07:50Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Which values? In the country that I and the OP’s niqabi (but not you) live in, our stated values include equality, liberty, and freedom of religion. We are now returning to tolerance. The Islamic faith does not tolerate other relgions ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/152 "2015-12-29T02:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Some people consider it their moral duty to speak out against the display of symbols of oppression and supremacy. So we can assume you’re in favour of removing the confederate flag? Renaming public streets named for slavery defending generals? Out there marching with Black Lives Matter are you? All for tearing down statues of the glorious slavery defenders that litter the south? Your Tshirt can say any kind of nasty bullshit, I don’t care. I might think you’re not very bright, or a racist. But I’m not going to scowl, glare and publicly scorn you. (Keeping in mind the promotion of Hate is not tolerated where I live. You wear an ‘I hate Jews’ shirt you will face consequences! That’s the law of this land, I’m afraid.) You will be free from seething waves of loathing and hatred. Let’s keep in mind that very holy and religious sites around the world are struggling to keep Western young people from getting naked and taking selfies. There are signs, and laws in place but these westerners seem to think, 'Tough Shit, I do what I like!" Y’all lose your shit when they face any consequences for doing so, but think your ‘cultural norms’ should be rigorously enforced? Nice double standard. And you get to decide if wearing a headscarf is oppression? Over and above the wearer? How can anyone take you seriously? Just say what you really mean already. 'We don’t want Muslims here! And that includes anyone being overtly Muslim." Just own your shit already and quit dancing around it with your nonsense and silky equivocations. You’re not fooling anyone. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/153 "2015-12-29T02:20:00Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > No, it doesn’t change my answer! > > Really? We’re down to judging people by their attire? You cannot be serious! > > And do you imagine we don’t see this on the subway in Toronto every freaking day? And you know what we do? We don’t give a shit, because we wear what we want and let other people do the same. > > The Conservative Party, which just spectacularly lost a federal election, tried this, to distract and outrage, as Election Day neared. Their spin was it had to be removed to swear the oath to become a citizen. Straight up race baiting! Cheap political trash! > > And Canadians resounding said, “Hell no!” > > Because that’s freaking bullshit, straight up. Of course people are judged by their attire and how they dress. As symbols cause mass shootings why wouldn’t they be? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/154 "2015-12-29T02:23:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I mentioned the Amish earlier in this thread, and would like folks to consider how they feel when they see an Amish woman or man walking down the street in what is considered their standard dress. They stand out like sore thumbs, and probably attract quite a few stares. But, as I also noted upthread, it would be rare person who would glare at them. I frequently see Mennonite families out and about, who are sort of Amish-lite, and they do of course stick out because of their attire and appearance, but it’s very much “Huh, what’s th… oh right” and I’m on with my day because what business is it of mine? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/155 "2015-12-29T02:50:43Z")
As people like to remind me, data is not the plural of anecdote. Still, speaking as a middle class white guy in a multiethnic, multifaith, middle class neighborhood, I have to say… almost everyone here gets along remarkably well. When I take my son to school every morning, there are loads of Muslim moms (Pakistanis, Iranis, Arabs, et al.) in minivans, dropping their kids off. Some dress like any other homemaker, some wear hijabs or assorted head scarves, and nobody bats an eyelash. Nobody stares, nobody yells, “Camel jockeys!” Nobody tells them “Go back where you came from” (like as not, they’d just feign puzzlement, and ask, “Houston?”). In outer Austin and the Austin suburbs, most of us ordinary folks interact with Muslims peacefully, even happily, all the time. Our kids have Muslim teammates on their soccer teams. Our wives regularly phone Muslim moms to set up birthday parties and play dates. When we take our kids to theme parks, parties, skate rinks, or arcades, the kids will gladly form instant friendships with other kids of every creed and color, while we share our life stories with parents we’d never met before. A few times, I’ve been to birthday parties where I was both the only adult male and the only adult non-Muslim present. And it wasn’t a big deal. In fact, you learn quickly that you can’t judge which Muslims are devout and/or assimilated by the way they dress. There are lots of pretty ordinary Midwestern girls wearing head scarves, and some loonies wearing Gap jeans. Point being, even those of us who see major problems with Islamic fundamentalist are quite capable of getting along with Muslim neighbors. Anti-Muslim hate crimes are extremely rare. Look it up. Most ordinary Americans don’t need a bumper sticker to tell us to COEXIST. We just DO it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/156 "2015-12-29T02:55:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And nuns with their head covering habits? Are they oppressed? Receiving your open scorn? No. They are not bound by it. They can walk away without fear of being killed. There is literally nothing stopping a nun from walking up to a priest and tell him that Jesus, Mary and Joseph can go fuck themselves and the donkey they rode in on. > [@elbows](#): > > Are you prepared to be judged by what you ‘allow’ your wife to wear. If I were married my spouse would wear any goddamn thing she wants. that goes for girl friends, sisters and mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/157 "2015-12-29T03:22:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No. They are not bound by it. They can walk away without fear of being killed. There is literally nothing stopping a nun from walking up to a priest and tell him that Jesus, Mary and Joseph can go fuck themselves and the donkey they rode in on. Nuns sure, but there are plenty of Christian women that are married to assholes that live in fear everyday. They have to fear who they talk to, what they wear, what they say… Do you have any evidence that this is more of a problem for Muslim women living in America than Christian women? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/158 "2015-12-29T03:40:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And do you think the reaction described in the OP – “more than a few stares … [and] many an angry look” – was because people felt so gosh-darned sorry that the woman was supposedly being oppressed? Because I don’t. I think you’re just trying to rationalize what was really going on, which was basically xenophobia, bigotry, and a generalized irrational fear of the unknown and unfamiliar. I seriously doubt that any of those yahoos even knew the traditional meaning of burquas and hijabs. > > If the woman is indeed being oppressed by some hypothetical ruthless husband and made to wear this stuff against her will then we have legal and social systems to protect her. If, however, she is freely participating in a traditional religious and cultural practice then it’s not anyone else’s damn business. They should focus their stares and anger at the junk that Walmart is trying to sell them. I don’t know how many Muslim women you know, but I know plenty of Muslim women in my country. Not one of them freely chooses to wear a Burqa or Hijab. When they do, their oppression is not by a ‘hypothetical ruthless husband’ _forcing_ them to wear it against their will. It is through cultural, familial and social pressure against which they have no legal protection. I have a friend who used to wear a Hijab throughout her college life. She hated doing it, but did so anyway because her parents and co-religionists would disapprove strongly if she didn’t. Legal protections are not enough against that kind of pressure. Societal disapproval should and must be added to the mix. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/159 "2015-12-29T03:48:22Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Do you have any evidence that this is more of a problem for Muslim women living in America than Christian women? [Yes](http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/13/islamic-honor-killings-in-america-on-the-rise-n2080252). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/160 "2015-12-29T03:56:10Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I don’t know how many Muslim women you know, but I know plenty of Muslim women in my country. Not one of them freely chooses to wear a Burqa or Hijab. When they do, their oppression is not by a ‘hypothetical ruthless husband’ _forcing_ them to wear it against their will. It is through cultural, familial and social pressure against which they have no legal protection. > > I have a friend who used to wear a Hijab throughout her college life. She hated doing it, but did so anyway because her parents and co-religionists would disapprove strongly if she didn’t. Legal protections are not enough against that kind of pressure. Societal disapproval should and must be added to the mix. Which country is this? Keep in mind that we are talking about Muslim women in the US, where there is indeed legal protection. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=9)