# Are angels and devils gods? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494 "2014-05-28T19:33:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/1 "2014-05-28T19:33:15Z")
I grew up Catholic, and my vague understanding of the Trinity is that was conjured up to make Catholicism well and truly monotheistic. If you pray to God and you pray to Jesus, that certainly sounds like polytheism until you introduce the loophole that they’re actually the same thing. Problem solved, right? Except Catholics pray to saints as well. I’m not sure if saints == angels in Catholic doctrine, but they certainly seem the same to me. You’ve got a whole slew of immortal beings, some of whom have interacted with people on Earth, who have “powers” that people try to take advantage of when praying to certain saints for certain things… that sounds just like the lesser gods in many other religions. And then of course there’s Satan, who’s effectively a god in his own right, at least by any sane definition of the word. So isn’t Catholicism polytheistic? ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/2 "2014-05-28T19:46:45Z")
Are Catholics permitted to pray to entities other than God? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/3 "2014-05-28T19:49:07Z")
I’m not the authoritative source of Catholic practices, but there are statues of Mary _everywhere_ that people pray to, and when I was growing up I’d pray to different saints for different things (travel and trying to find something I lost being the two examples I remember). ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/4 "2014-05-28T19:53:09Z")
It all depends on your definition. Angels and saints while conflated in pop culture are distinct beings as defined in catholic theology. Angels are beings of spirit created by god to serve as messengers, guides and protectors of us humans. Catholics do not worship angels, they worship god alongside the angels. Every human who dies and goes to heaven is a saint and Saints are those whose lives are so holy that we agree through the authority of the church that their souls reside in heaven, no question. Catholics venerate saints. It’s not worship, but it’s appreciation and they are often asked to function as intercessories to god for us. Biblically, god was open to debate and argumentation over actions he should take as evidenced by Abraham’s plea for Sodom to be saved. So we pray to the saints to intercede on our behalf as Abraham interceded for the inhabitants of Sodom. I think there’s also an element of humility there, why should I think god needs to be bothered with my problems, but the bvm? She gets it, she’s friendly and approachable. Why satan is allowed to exist and cause evil when he could be eradicated completely and totally with no more thought than blinking is swept under the rug by calling it a divine mystery. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/5 "2014-05-28T19:56:10Z")
> [@Lubricious\_Integument](#): > > Are Catholics permitted to pray to entities other than God? Yes, although when you pray to a saint, what you’re supposed to do is ask the saint to intercede for you since presumably the saint is better at talking to the big guy than you are. Or you’re uncomfortable asking the big guy correctly. Or you know that saints are the ones performing miracles, so maybe they could help you out. That’s not to say you can’t or shouldn’t pray to the big guy himself, just that there are options. My source for this is my CCD class when I was a youngster, even if I’m an atheist now. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/6 "2014-05-28T20:00:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So isn’t Catholicism polytheistic? Saints are not the same thing as angels, and neither are the same thing as God. IANAC, but from my outsider’s view, orthodox Catholics are not polytheists, but there do exist (muddled) Catholics who essentially are; and some of the Catholics’ business with Patron Saints and the Virgin Mary and so on looks too close to polytheism for many Protestants’ comfort. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/7 "2014-05-28T20:01:53Z")
Disclaimer : I’m not a Catholic, but this is my understanding of the theology. Catholic saints are not worshipped, per se. Nor is the Virgin Mary… technically. You offer prayers to them not so they can swing some personal holy mojo on you, rather their “purpose” is called intercession. Middle man. God’s a busy guy, he delegates, worries about the Big Picture. Kind of scary, angry and judgemental, too. But Mary, well… she’s a girl, she’s got more empathy and a lot of time on her hands. So you hope that she’ll listen to your petty shit, go “Awwwww poor thing. Let me talk to my family, I’m sure they’ll be able to help”. Then she goes and does the Jewish Mother thing on Jesus until he fixes your shit just to get her out of his (gorgeous) hair. Same deal with the saints. They listen to what you got (provided it’s in their portfolio), assess, monitor, review, upvote, write TPS reports. Sometimes they take it to the Big Guy, who does the holy mojo part. Yes, it’s a rather thin nuance. And yes, it’s probably just a doctrinal rationalization because Og knows the Virgin Mary is _big_ in the Latin cultural sphere. But there you go. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/8 "2014-05-28T21:20:25Z")
If you’re really interested in angels (history of), you might check out: [What’s the deal with angels? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2059/whats-the-deal-with-angels) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/9 "2014-05-28T21:51:51Z")
Yes, they are. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/10 "2014-05-28T23:00:56Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > . . . So isn’t Catholicism polytheistic? Nope. Angels and Saints are lesser spirits. They’re helpers and intermediaries and messengers. They don’t make policy. Angels might not even have free will at all; that’s something some theologians have claimed. (You might argue that Satan tried to make himself into a god…but it didn’t turn out well, and he got slapped down. Management/labor relations turned violent.) Some people say that the Trinity implies polytheism, but that’s pretty much a matter of semantics. God may be three…but he’s also one. During the Crusades, the Saracens sometimes referred to the Franks as “Polytheists” because of the Trinity, but that isn’t really fair. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/11 "2014-05-29T00:18:28Z")
Depends on what you think “god” means. If you think every supernatural agent is a god then, yes, angels, saints, demons, etc are all gods. However most religious traditions have a somewhat more nuanced understanding. In the western monotheist tradition, god is the creator of all things other than himself, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving. Angels, saints, demons and the like do not qualify. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/12 "2014-05-29T00:25:18Z")
One local evangelist says the bible uses the word ‘god’ to describe different entities, including certain humans. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/13 "2014-05-29T02:16:14Z")
Well, I don’t know about “certain humans”. But the word “god” is used (in English translations) to refert to idols and false gods (e.g. Gen 30:34 " Now Rachel had taken the household gods and put them in the camel’s saddle, and sat on them.") and even to Satan (2 Cr 4:4 “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”) That doesn’t mean, obviously, the the authors regarded either small statues or Satan as actual gods; the authors are just acknowledging that they are treated as gods by some. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/14 "2014-05-30T00:51:56Z")
Saints and angels have no power of their own, and that’s the big difference between them and demi-gods of other religions. While Hercules could hold the world on his shoulders (at least for a little while), St. Anthony can’t do jack without the G-O-single-D making it so. That is not to say that the saints and angels just need God’s permission to do magic; I’m saying they literally can’t do anything other than plead on our behalf. God has to do all the miraclin’ that needs doin’. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/15 "2014-05-30T01:27:33Z")
The idea that an omnipotent omnipresent god needs ‘middle men’ is funny to me. As well as the idea of praying in general actually, he already knows your troubles so beseeching him is either irrelevant cause he’s going to fix it or irrelevant cause he won’t. Saints and angels are the compromise monotheists made to convert pagans, see also Easter, Christmas and just about everything else balled into this grab bag of contradictions. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/16 "2014-05-30T03:47:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Nope. Angels and Saints are lesser spirits. They’re helpers and intermediaries and messengers. They don’t make policy. Angels might not even have free will at all; that’s something some theologians have claimed. > > (You might argue that Satan tried to make himself into a god…but it didn’t turn out well, and he got slapped down. Management/labor relations turned violent.) > > Some people say that the Trinity implies polytheism, but that’s pretty much a matter of semantics. God may be three…but he’s also one. During the Crusades, the Saracens sometimes referred to the Franks as “Polytheists” because of the Trinity, but that isn’t really fair. It’s fair according to the Muslim understanding of monotheism. Christians don’t consider _ourselves_ polytheists, but that’s a separate issue. Orthodox Christians are supposed to recognize the Trinity 'neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the essence." To divide the essence is polytheism, to confound the persons is to commit an equal and opposite error called Modalism. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/17 "2014-05-30T03:55:06Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > The idea that an omnipotent omnipresent god needs ‘middle men’ is funny to me. As well as the idea of praying in general actually, he already knows your troubles so beseeching him is either irrelevant cause he’s going to fix it or irrelevant cause he won’t. Just because you \*can \*do something doesn’t mean you care to if there’s ways to avoid having to do it. The CEO could write the website he hired a code monkey to bang out himself if he wanted to. Even if he knew nothing about it, it takes like a week to teach yourself the how. He’s just more interested in sipping rum and crack coke with a hooker he’s paying with his company card, is all :). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/18 "2014-05-30T04:00:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Disclaimer : I’m not a Catholic, but this is my understanding of the theology. > > Catholic saints are not worshipped, per se. Nor is the Virgin Mary… technically. > You offer prayers to them not so they can swing some personal holy mojo on you, rather their “purpose” is called intercession. Middle man. Yes, that’s pretty much it. You pray to saints as middlepersons, but you do not worship them. You worship only God. That’s the key difference. No one and nothing is a god except God. In 3 persons, of course! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-angels-and-devils-gods/689494/19 "2014-05-30T05:26:56Z")
With the powers given to Satan in modern strains of Christianity you may as well call him a god. Of course he’s supposed to lose in the end, but hey, Ragnorak. Satan is basically an Angra Mainyu expy. If angels don’t have free will then how did Satan and the other angels rebel against god? Or tempt humans? The divine plan, I guess.