# Are antiwar protests causing more casualties than necessary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056 "2003-03-25T16:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/61 "2003-03-26T15:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*From the [Straits Times](http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/forum/story/0,4386,179365,00.html?) \*\* So the answer to my question is Yes, you do believe this, and as “evidence”, you cite a half-Iraqi guy living in Singapore’s obviously hyperbolic and unfounded opinion. This guy might like to inform me that this is true, but I don’t see what evidence (besides his genetics) he has to support this position. That’s some silly evidence, **December**. Check out the Hint thread for, well, a hint. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/62 "2003-03-26T15:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > That’s some silly evidence, **December**. Check out the Hint thread for, well, a hint._\* I’ve been following **Collounsbury’s** most interesting thread. He wrote > [@](#): > > Yes, I have number of good friends in the Iraqi community. In large part they are looking forward to a post-Saddam future, but again there is little to no support among them for the war, and the manner in which it is happening they find humiliating and are very angry. My housekeeper, a Shiite told me she was happy to see Iraqis fighting back, to teach Americans a lesson. But, why isn’t LAITH MUHMOOD AL ADELY as valid a source as **Collounsbury?** Neither of them is in Iraq, but al Adely is half Iraqi. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/63 "2003-03-26T15:43:59Z")
Given that **Collounsbury** is there, whereas your cite is in Singapore; given that your cite makes a patently false claim (that 9 in 10 Iraqis are pro-war, and the remaining 1 in 10 Iraqis are related to the gubmint) – no, Laith isn’t as valid a source. You’ll note, too, that Laith gives no evidence whatsoever for the claim that 9 in 10 Iraqis are pro-war: that figure looks remarkably like it was pulled out of Laith’s butt. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/64 "2003-03-26T15:46:46Z")
As something of a counter-cite, check out [This New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/26/international/worldspecial/26ARAB.html?pagewanted=all&position=top). It doesn’t address public opinion in Iraq so much as opinion in the Arab world as a whole, including such scary observations as: > [@](#): > > The [anti-American] sentiment proved infectious across the region — volunteers even showing up by the score at Iraqi embassies prepared to join the fight. Many Arabs cursed their own governments for doing nothing but issuing empty condemnations. > > “The Iraqis are real men, and I am proud of them,” said Gasser Fahmi, a 30-year-old computer engineer interviewed on a Cairo street. “At the start of the war, I was very frustrated and did not want to hear the news, but now I watch the news closely to see how many losses the Americans suffer.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/65 "2003-03-26T16:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **This New York Times article…doesn’t address public opinion in Iraq so much as opinion in the Arab world as a whole…** Yes, I can well believe that a majority of the non-Iraqi Arab world opposes the US-led invasion. They don’t have to live under Saddam. If the US wins and improves the lives of the Iraqi people, I hope that opinion will change. I also agree that the 9 out of 10 figure was pulled out of Laith’s butt. In fact, every statement of Iraqi opinion is pulled out of someone’s butt. There’s no way to get honest answers from Iraqis, who know they could be tortured or murdered by Saddam’s government for saying the wrong thing. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/66 "2003-03-26T16:04:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*If you haven’t received an honest answer as to why we have invaded, how do you automically know that “The Iraqi regime is evil, and oppressive”, is not, in fact, the reason? \*\* OK, a couple of things. First, I want to know if you are taking the position that this is, indeed, why we are there. This is a simple yes/no question. To respond to your question, I can not state that I _know_ that this is not the reason, but I can stated that, based on all of the evidence that I have been able to find it is reasonable to assume that this is not why we are there. As other and I posters have pointed out, there are a host of humanitarian problems on the planet as deserving of our attention that we seem to be cheerfully ignoring. Look, we have been given this shifting mosaic of rationalizations for why we are in Iraq, as one reason dries up another is offered. At very best, we either have an administration with a hidden agenda or one that disrespects our intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/67 "2003-03-26T16:22:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*And, it’s too freakin’ bad that [the Iraqis don’t want your “help.”](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-war-callhome24mar24004422,1,3509140.story) So, **Daniel** , just who _are_ you helping, other than Saddam Hussein and the Ba’ath Party? \*\* Okey dokey – so we now know that you consider this cite to be unreliable (inasmuch as you admitted it was pulled out of the author’s butt). That means that the first part of this post is meaningless and unfounded; given that, I don’t think it’s necessary to respond to the second part of this post. Glad we could clear that up! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/68 "2003-03-26T16:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*Okey dokey – so we now know that you consider this cite to be unreliable (inasmuch as you admitted it was pulled out of the author’s butt). That means that the first part of this post is meaningless and unfounded; given that, I don’t think it’s necessary to respond to the second part of this post. > > Glad we could clear that up! > Daniel \*\* I actually wrote that this cite is no less reliable than any other cite. Aside from misstating what I wrote, your excuse doesn’t even make sense. Since you support anti-war activities, you must think they benefit _someone_. So, **Daniel** , just who do you think you are helping? ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/69 "2003-03-26T18:09:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > I am not attempting to “prove” anything here. If you wish to deny the obvious - as you evidently do - be my guest.“Measure the rise in Iraqi morale”? What in the world does this mean? All I’m saying is that the presence of protests causes Iraqi morale to be higher than it otherwise would be, and that this tends to forestall conceding defeat. I’m not about to “measure the rise” or figure out how many extra deaths are caused by protests or anything of the sort. If you can’t present any evidence for your case then what are you doing? Am I just supposed to believe you because you say so? All you’re doing is saying “You’re wrong”. Well woopteedoo, how convincing. Need I tell you about the Invisible Pink Unicorns? They’re pretty obvious, the fact that you would deny their existence or demand proof is beyond me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/70 "2003-03-26T22:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I actually wrote that this cite is no less reliable than any other cite. > > Aside from misstating what I wrote, your excuse doesn’t even make sense. Since you support anti-war activities, you must think they benefit _someone_. So, **Daniel** , just who do you think you are helping? \*\* What you wrote was, “I also agree that the 9 out of 10 figure was pulled out of Laith’s butt.” If you think that buttogenetic cites are reliable, my apologies; otherwise, I didn’t misstate what you said. For this point, whether other cites are reliable is irrelevant: all that matters is that your claim, that “the Iraqis don’t want [my] ‘help’,” is unfounded. If you honestly need an answer to your second sentence, and if you’ve not got it from everything I’ve said here and elsewhere, I can reiterate for you. Whom do I think protesting the war helps? -American civilians, who are less likely to be attacked by terrorists if the man on the Arabic street realizes that we don’t all support our deceitful imperialistic government. -American Soldiers, who are less likely to be put in harm’s way in the next war if there’s a groundswelling of popular opposition to this war. -Iraqi civilians, who are less likely to find themselves as collateral damage if folks keep a strong pressure on the military to minimize such deaths. -People in countries like Iran, who might not be invaded next time if opposition to this war is strong enough. -People around the world, who will benefit from the US working within, instead of in defiance to, international bodies and agreements. -All sorts of people who will benefit from Bush’s leaving office in 2004. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![voltaire2b](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@voltaire2b](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire2b)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/71 "2003-03-26T23:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I think you’re still ignoring someone who deserves just a teeny bit of blame. Here’s a hint: His initials are SH. \*\* Hmmm… I don’t think it was activists, liberals, and leftists who put “SH” in power and declared him our “friend” while he was doing the same stuff he’s doing now (torture, killings, etc.). As has been stated before, it’s not that establishing a democracy and building infrastructure are a bad idea (no, they’re a good idea!) – it’s just that those are most probably NOT the goals of the present administration and the “commander in chief” of this military operation. Think about it: due to leaks (Ashcroft was keeping it a secret), this administration is planning on proposing legislation which would allow it to arbitrarily strip Americans of their citizenship – with no recourse for redress or grievance. Habeas corpus is dying. The “president” came to power through blacks being denied the vote in Florida. Where does anyone get the idea that this “president” and this administration likes democracy? Or has anything against torture? I am against torture, but the people in charge of this attack are not (at least, they’re not against it on foreign soil – they’re still a notch above the rest). Wake up. Most probably, if the attack is successful, SH will be removed and another member of his party will be allowed to replace him – will _that_ stop the torture and killings that this administration never cared about in the first place? No, it will not. The Iraqi people are right back where they started. Let’s say it’s decided to take out SH’s party or “regime” – who replaces it? Well, given that we’ll probably just up and leave once the fireworks are over and let people fight it out, probably some warlord or fundamentalist – will this stop torture and killings and increase freedom and openness? Or maybe we’ll decide to stay by backing a “democratic” party that’s really just a front for the CIA – and as we all know, the CIA just hates leaders that torture. That’s what made the CIA oppose Pinochet – NOT. So, again, continued torture, political killings, etc. etc. It’s not that saving Iraq is a bad idea – it’s that the Bush administration is not the one to _do_ it – unless you’ve been absent for the last two years. If, somehow, an open society suddenly appears in Iraq, I’ll be overjoyed. But I’m not holding my breath. And in the meantime, we’re dropping bombs all over and convincing lots of young men across the world that we are an arrogant country that doesn’t care about listening to its international partners and doesn’t care about killing other people when we want more control. Now how exactly does that stop terrorism? It doesn’t. In the end, this war is not about stopping terrorism and is not about creating democracy or saving people from torture. It would be nice if it were, but to believe that means to have not been paying attention to who it is who is running this show. Just because Bush says it’s so doesn’t mean it’s so. It’s a very simply idea, really – it’s called lying. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/72 "2003-03-27T00:03:10Z")
Welcome to the board, \*\*voltaire2b \*\*. Here in Great Debates, the tradition is to provide evidence for one’s statements. You made a set of what I would consider wild allegations. I invite you to support them with cites. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/73 "2003-03-27T01:46:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > **OK, a couple of things. First, I want to know if you are taking the position that this is, indeed, why we are there. This is a simple yes/no question.** Yes, I believe it is _one_ of the reasons we are there. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/74 "2003-03-27T08:02:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > But in brief, your latter three points were _justifications_ for protesting even at the price of more deaths. I would not argue those as part of the same debate.I was referring to your aforementioned justifications. I am suggesting that even for those who would justify it, it is a lot easier if you are also denying doing so. Which provides a rationale for the twisted logic presented here. This is just idiotic. You are apparently unfamiliar with the phrase “for the sake of argument”. It is imminently logical to advance seperate arguments in the following manner: A is true. Even if A were not true, B would render A immaterial. If you consider such reasoning to be “twisted”, then you understand nothing about logic. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/75 "2003-03-27T08:06:27Z")
Oops, that should have been “eminently”, not “imminently”.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/76 "2003-03-27T08:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Welcome to the board, \*\*voltaire2b \*\*. Here in Great Debates, the tradition is to provide evidence for one’s statements. You made a set of what I would consider wild allegations. I invite you to support them with cites. Does he have to give factual cites, or can he quote editorials the way you do? :rolleyes: In any event, it seems to me most of **voltaire2b’s** points are already well-established facts – Reagan’s support of Saddam Hussein in the 80s, the 2000 Presidential Election fiasco, the Patriot Act II, the United States sending captured _al Qaeda_ suspects to Pakistan for “interrogation,” etc. etc. He’s got some speculative points near the end, but they’re clearly marked as speculation, so cites wouldn’t be needed for those. Or maybe you’re just annoyed that he nailed you to the wall? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/77 "2003-03-27T13:33:59Z")
Welcome, **voltaire**. One thing you’ll learn real quick: taking advice on how to provide cites from **december** is like taking advice on how to work with other nations from Dubya. Don’t sweat his criticism. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/78 "2003-03-27T14:02:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > This is just idiotic. You are apparently unfamiliar with the phrase “for the sake of argument”. It is imminently logical to advance seperate arguments in the following manner: > > A is true. > Even if A were not true, B would render A immaterial. > > If you consider such reasoning to be “twisted”, then you understand nothing about logic. You are confused. Very confused. I’ll try it slowly, using your preferred A and B. A is idiotic, or “twisted”. At the same time, “even if A were not true, B would render A immaterial”. So one might wonder what motivation someone would have to argue such an idiotic position as A, instead of relying on B. The answer, I am suggesting, is that B is politically unpalatable. Therefore it’s proponents are comfortable arguing on its behalf when it is being used “for the sake of argument”, but are not comfortable using it as the actual basis for their position. Which motivates them to buy into the rediculous contortions of A. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/79 "2003-03-27T14:29:56Z")
Somebody several posts ago said > [@](#): > > I can think of countless reasons why Iraqi soldiers may continue to fight, even though they probably know that the war will be lost. I’m sure you have read by now – it’s all over the news this morning – that in some cases there are one or two additional reasons: 1. There are guns pointed at the backs of the heads of some of the Iraqi soldiers; if they don’t fight their commanders execute them. 2. Worse, their families are being held hostage; if they don’t fight their children are murdered. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056/80 "2003-03-27T14:35:05Z")
Oh, and one other thing. While the police are occupied arresting protesters who block traffic and (sometimes) throw rocks, what else are they NOT doing? They are certainly not watching out for somebody on the subway with, say, a little container of something you and I don’t really want to breathe in. Or checking what’s really in the back of that beat-up panel truck. Or even looking for the really dangerous people. These protesters are using up resources we need elsewhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-antiwar-protests-causing-more-casualties-than-necessary/164056.md?page=5)