# Are any of the "origin stories" of Mother Goose rhymes actually well-supported? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [September 16, 2026, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128 "2026-09-16T23:08:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2026, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/1 "2026-09-16T23:08:52Z")
Every now and then, you come across an explanation for the supposed story behind this or that Mother Goose rhyme, often claiming that what we tell as a childish nursery rhyme actually stands for a specific event in English history, political commentary, or a metaphor for a real individual of note. Examples: “Ring Around the Rosies” is a metaphor for the Black Death. Humpty Dumpty was a big fat cannon that was mounted on the wall of a fort and used during the English Civil War; this specific cannon eventually blew up on one charge. “Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary” refers to Mary, Queen of Scots and her clumsy, ill-fated reign. Little Miss Muffet was Patience, the daughter or stepdaughter of an entomologist called Dr. Thomas Muffet (died 1604), who also studied spiders. And so on and so forth. A book, called [Rhymes Rhymes & Reasons: An Annotated Collection of Mother Goose Rhymes,](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0867130407?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback) written and illustrated by artist James Christensen, was even published by the art dealer Greenwich Workshop. But many of these have been discredited as having no real evidence behind them. The morbid Ring Around the Rosies interpretation seems to be among the most fantastical. Is there any nursery rhyme for which there is compelling evidence that it was composed for adults to commemorate a known event, immortalize a character, etc.? Or is looking for metaphors in Mother Goose a fool’s errand and are the vast majority of these just silly rhyming stories composed for reciting or singing to children? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2026, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/2 "2026-09-16T23:28:09Z")
Kitty Fisher for sure in the rhyme [Lucy Locket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Locket). At least, Kitty Fisher was a real person. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/3 "2026-09-17T04:38:39Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > But many of these have been discredited as having no real evidence behind them. Are you suggesting the ever-credible Paul Harvey lied to me about the origin of Little Jack Horner? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/4 "2026-09-18T11:11:25Z")
Baa Baa Black Sheep was first published in 1744. However, most scholars claim that this rhyme is based on the reality of life in feudal times in England in general and the export tax for wool farmers of 1275 created by King Edward I Many people believe they know the origins of _Ring a Ring o’ Roses:_ The Black Death (1348) or the Great Plague (1665) (thus the chanting of “a tishoo” and “we all fall down” [dead]). Nonetheless, this association is modern according to scholars who now doubt the relationship between either of the events and the rhyme. Their reasoning is that the first known documenting of the rhyme is 1881, much later than either plague ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/5 "2026-09-18T18:48:04Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > Humpty Dumpty was a big fat cannon that was mounted on the wall of a fort and used during the English Civil War; this specific cannon eventually blew up on one charge. Last I read, Humpty Dumpty had it origin in a riddle. > [@themapleleaf](#): > > “Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary” refers to Mary, Queen of Scots and her clumsy, ill-fated reign. That one is a maybe, but still doubtful- > **[Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Mary,_Quite_Contrary)** > > "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary" is an English nursery rhyme. The rhyme has been seen as having religious and historical significance, but its origins and meaning are disputed. It has a Roud Folk Song Index number of 19626. The most common modern version is: Mary, Mary, quite contrary, > How does your garden grow? > With silver bells, and cockle shells, > And pretty maids all in a row. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/6 "2026-09-18T19:07:14Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > Humpty Dumpty was a big fat cannon that was mounted on the wall of a fort and used during the English Civil War; this specific cannon eventually blew up on one charge. I’m not sure of the origin but it’s featured pretty prominently in _Through the Looking Glass_ by Lewis Carroll. And in the illustration, Humpty is an egg. I wonder if that was the first time he was depicted as an egg, and did the characterization stick? I have only ever conceptualized him as an egg. ETA: According to wiki: > According to the Oxford English Dictionary, in the seventeenth century, the term “humpty dumpty” referred to a drink of brandy boiled with ale.[8] The riddle probably exploited, for misdirection, the fact that “humpty dumpty” was also eighteenth-century reduplicative slang for a short and clumsy person.[13] The riddle may depend upon the assumption that a clumsy person falling off a wall might not be irreparably damaged, whereas an egg would be. So I guess it’s not mentioned explicitly since you’re supposed to guess he’s an egg. It did mention a cannon in that article but the link does not appear established. It looks like the war in question happened centuries before the rhyme became popular. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/7 "2026-09-18T19:36:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Last I read, Humpty Dumpty had it origin in a riddle. That’s what Wikipedia says. The reason I quoted the cannon story is because I wanted to give an example of an explanation that’s supposedly been debunked and ask if there are any nursery rhyme explanations that – in contrast – have been attested. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/8 "2026-09-18T20:02:19Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > Or is looking for metaphors in Mother Goose a fool’s errand and are the vast majority of these just silly rhyming stories composed for reciting or singing to children? I don’t know the answer for sure, but it seems unlikely to me that average people were creating rhymes with complex metaphors to stand for certain events or things. If you take a lot of Carroll’s creations, for example, they really were just silly stories for children. The political connotation came from the illustrator John Tenniel who was a political cartoonist. And they had a lot of conflict over that. But you know, by drawing Humpty with his little cravat, maybe Tenniel made that about the fragility of the aristocracy or something, I don’t know. But I doubt most people were thinking that way. I’m thinking about how rarely symbolism ends up in popular music. Our modem nursery rhymes aren’t metaphors, either. So we would have to either believe that children were particularly well-informed enough to come up with these, or that adults came up with them and then taught them to children for some reason. Most things that adults taught children in that era were instructional, cautionary tales with some sort of explicit moral, which Carroll did very much rebel against by turning moralistic children’s poetry into silly nonsense. I am really interested to learn more, though. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/9 "2026-09-18T20:05:32Z")
Humpty Dumpty wore a cravat in the illustrations because he wore a cravat in the story. Poor Alice, however, couldn’t tell if it was a cravat or a belt. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/10 "2026-09-18T20:11:26Z")
More fool I. I didn’t even know what a cravat was when I first read it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/11 "2026-09-18T20:51:54Z")
Read it again when you have a chance. Those books are really wonderful – if you didn’t know what a cravat was, you probably missed a lot of wordplay, too. You can get annotated versions, too, where they explain all the context, the original rhymes that Carroll was copying, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/12 "2026-09-18T20:52:52Z")
Oh yes, I have the _Annotated Alice._ It’s been a while since I’ve read it though. That book is my first love. My son will love it when we get to the math stuff. Oh and also the chess pieces! He’s really into chess right now. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/13 "2026-09-18T21:04:24Z")
Fantastic! I read it to my kids a couple of times. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/14 "2026-09-18T23:19:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Oh yes, I have the _Annotated Alice._ It’s been a while since I’ve read it though. That book is my first love. So do I. _Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland_ is my favorite novel. I have enjoyed the story on different levels at different ages. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/15 "2026-09-18T23:57:25Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Oh yes, I have the _Annotated Alice._ It’s been a while since I’ve read it though. That book is my first love. Great book. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2026, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/16 "2026-09-19T00:40:14Z")
The Pied Piper of Hamelin is at least partially based on a true event that occurred in 1284 where a traveling recruiter convinced a large number of the town’s young adults to emigrate to the eastern reaches of Germany. > **[Pied Piper of Hamelin | Emigration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin#Emigration)** > > Speculation on the emigration theory is based on the idea that by the 13th century, overpopulation of the area resulted in the oldest son owning all the land and power (majorat), leaving the rest as serfs. It has also been suggested that one reason the emigration of the children was never documented was that the children were sold to a recruiter from the Baltic region of Eastern Europe, a practice that was not uncommon at the time. In his book The Pied Piper: A Handbook, Wolfgang Mieder s In the ... ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2026, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-of-the-origin-stories-of-mother-goose-rhymes-actually-well-supported/1033128/17 "2026-09-19T20:16:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Pied Piper of Hamelin is at least partially based on a true event that occurred in 1284 where a traveling recruiter convinced a large number of the town’s young adults to emigrate to the eastern reaches of Germany. This is on the level of a credible theory with some evidence found (e.g. names like “Hamel” or “Hamelinkow” found in Poland).