# Are any places outside Europe part of the EU? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 23, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170 "2010-12-23T08:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/21 "2010-12-25T09:45:34Z")
Of course the question is highly theoretical anyway. Algeria gained independence from France in 1962. At that time the European Economic Community was only five years old; the transitional period for the implementation of the customs union, which forms the core of the Comunity/Union, was not yet over, and the landmark decisions of the European Court of Justice like van Gend or Costa/ENEL which established the peculiarity of the EEC/EC/EU system and distinguish from the plethora of other regonal organisations in the world had not yet been passed. In 1962, was very much at an infant stage and did not have much impact. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/22 "2010-12-25T15:56:33Z")
Ok, let me be more specific about the goal of my original question. It is my understanding that if you are a citizen of an EU country, you can live and work in an EU country other than your own without a lot of fuss, as opposed to say, a U.S. citizen who has to give more types of justification and have a sponsor, etc. Please tell me if I’m wrong. So, which tropical, lovely, countries or islands will allow EU citizens to live there under the same live/work rules an EU citizen would enjoy on the European mainland? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/23 "2010-12-25T17:01:51Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > So, which tropical, lovely, countries or islands will allow EU citizens to live there under the same live/work rules an EU citizen would enjoy on the European mainland? I’m a bit confused about what the question is aiming for. Are you asking for tropical _countries_ that are members of the EU? Well, the EU has 27 member states, all of which are European countries. There is a large number of association agreements concluded between the EU and other countries, such as the ACP (Africa - Caribbean - Pacific) agreement giving preferential imigration treatment to the citizens of these countries, but they are still not EU members. Or are you talking about tropical _territories_ that belong to the EU? Some EU countries have overseas dependencies to which EU law applies, as has been covered in this thread, but these territories are not independent countries, they are parts of an EU member state and part of the EU by virtue of that. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/24 "2010-12-25T23:19:44Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Of course it’s possible that people at the time considered Algeria to be an integral part of France, and therefore didn’t include it in that provision. This I do not know. But I would expect a special status of Algeria to be mentioned in the Treaty, and I couldn’t find it. I admit, however, that it would be preferable to have a full-text version, including annexes, of the Treaty of Rome as it was signed in 1957 (without the later amendments, which is what you usually find in online versions of the Treaty), to run a search for Algeria on it. The relevant article of the Treaty of Rome is Article 227: > [@](#): > > Article 227 1. This Treaty shall apply to the Kingdom of Belgium, the Federal Republic of Germany, the French Republic, the Italian Republic, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and the Kingdom of the Netherlands. > > 1. **With regard to Algeria** and the French overseas departments, the general and special provisions of this Treaty relating to: > > shall apply as from the date of the entry into force of this Treaty. > > The conditions for the application of the other provisions of this Treaty shall be determined, not later than two years after the date of its entry into force, by decisions of the Council acting by means of a unanimous vote on a proposal of the Commission. > > The institutions of the Community shall, within the framework of the procedures provided for in this Treaty and, in particular, of Article 226, ensure the possibility of the economic and social development of the regions concerned. > > 1. The overseas countries and territories listed in Annex IV to this Treaty shall be the subject of the special system of association described in Part IV of this Treaty. > > 2. The provisions of this Treaty shall apply to European territories for whose external relations a Member State is responsible. You will see that Annex IV is not relevant to the case of Algeria, which is mentioned specifically within the text of the Treaty itself. The Annex IV territories are: > [@](#): > > French West Africa: Senegal, French Sudan, French Guinea, Ivory Coast, Dahomey, Mauritania, Niger, and Upper Volta; > > French Equatorial Africa: Middle Congo, Ubangi-Shari, Chad and Gabon; > > Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the Comoro Archipelago, Madagascar and dependencies, French Somaliland, New Caledonia and dependencies, French Settlements in Oceania, Southern and Antarctic Territories; > > The Autonomous Republic of Togoland; > > The trust territory of the Cameroons under French administration; > > The Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi; > > The trust territory of Somaliland under Italian administration; > > Netherlands New Guinea Frustratingly, I have so far been unsuccessful in searching online for the name of the special status which applied to Algeria. However, a Wikipedia article on “[Withdrawal from the European Union](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union)” mentions the 2 historical cases of withdrawal that I am aware of: Algeria and Greenland. The text relating to Algeria is as follows: > [@](#): > > Algeria > > The 1962 secession of French Algeria, which was an integral part of France and hence of the then-European Communities, was the only such occasion on which a territory subject to the Treaty of Rome has become an independent state. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/25 "2010-12-25T23:34:39Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > So, which tropical, lovely, countries or islands will allow EU citizens to live there under the same live/work rules an EU citizen would enjoy on the European mainland? An EU or EEA citizen can reside without a visa in any of the French overseas départements (Réunion, Guadeloupe, Martinique and French Guyana, and soon Mayotte) and any of the French overseas territories (including French Polynesia, New Caledonia, and other less tropical places). ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/26 "2010-12-26T03:15:45Z")
I can’t vouch for its accuracy or anything, but [this Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_their_relations_with_the_European_Union) has a thorough rundown of which territories are subject to which provisions of EU law. All sorts of oddities like the island of Heligoland in the North Sea being outside the VAT and customs areas, while the Mount Athos peninsula in Greece is outside the VAT area but within the customs area. ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/27 "2010-12-26T07:51:05Z")
Thanks Hibernicus, I thought there might be more. What about St. Barths, St. Marten, etc. I recently read in an article that a lot of French people move to St. Barths, (that’s how this whole question popped into my head) but that doesn’t tell me anything about other EU citizens. Thanks waterj2, I saw that page before, but my confusion stems from how to figure out which territories the EU residency privilege applies to. I don’t know what this thing I’m trying to find out is _called_, or what part of the EU rules it falls under. Is it “Schengen Area”, “Eurozone” or is it not mentioned at all on that page? ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/28 "2010-12-26T08:17:22Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I’m a bit confused about what the question is aiming for. > Or are you talking about tropical _territories_ that belong to the EU? Some EU countries have overseas dependencies to which EU law applies, as has been covered in this thread, but these territories are not independent countries, they are parts of an EU member state and part of the EU by virtue of that. I never said independent countries, but it doesn’t matter. I just want to find out what areas/islands/countries/territories/whatever you want to call them have the same residency/visa laws for EU citizens that European EU countries do. No, I’m not talking about easy immigration or anything like that. I don’t know how to make this more understandable. I assume you know that as an EU citizen you can move to other EU countries without “immigrating” or getting a visa. I don’t know the exact details (maybe someone can help me out here) but I believe you can legally find work in another EU country without a work visa or advance permission. In other words, you can move there, take up residence and then find a job, all without a visa. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/29 "2010-12-26T09:15:00Z")
Thanks to **hibernicus** for pointing out this interesting facet of European history. > [@Rusalka](#): > > I just want to find out what areas/islands/countries/territories/whatever you want to call them have the same residency/visa laws for EU citizens that European EU countries do. Well, these are obviously those areas/islands/countries/territories/whatever whose citizens _are_ EU citizens, because the people who live there hold the nationality of an EU member state. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/30 "2010-12-26T11:59:59Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > Ok, let me be more specific about the goal of my original question. It is my understanding that if you are a citizen of an EU country, you can live and work in an EU country other than your own without a lot of fuss, as opposed to say, a U.S. citizen who has to give more types of justification and have a sponsor, etc. Please tell me if I’m wrong. It differs from country to country. From personal knowledge, Denmark is a pain in the arse for other EU citizens to work there, and pertinent to the question due to the number of tropical territories it has, so is France. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/31 "2010-12-26T14:11:34Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Well, these are obviously those areas/islands/countries/territories/whatever whose citizens _are_ EU citizens, because the people who live there hold the nationality of an EU member state. Not quite, the rules don’t work both way. The inhabitants of most British overseas territories today are also full British citizens. However, EU treaty rights do NOT apply to those territories. There are restrictions on even British citizens without local status, never mind other EU citizens. See the rules for Bermuda, for example: > [@](#): > > Britons - those from the UK who are not Bermudian by birth or status - as a foreign as any other foreigner from any other country and need a Work Permit. It should be noted carefully that all expatriate non-Bermudians including Britons who are not also Bermudian who come here are not “immigrants” but on Work Permits for no longer than a Bermuda-permitted period of time (see below). They have no automatic right of abode after 4 years as they do in Britain. Britons and European Economic Community (EEC) citizens do not have any of the same rights to live, be domiciled, be employed and retire here as they do in the United Kingdom or EEC. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/32 "2010-12-26T15:12:08Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Not quite, the rules don’t work both way. The inhabitants of most British overseas territories today are also full British citizens. However, EU treaty rights do NOT apply to those territories. This is tre, but immaterial from the OP’s perspective. The OP did not ask about _territories_ to which EU law applies, but to _individuals_ enjoying freedom of movement in the EU. And here the principle in the EU is simple: Freedom of movement pertains to Union citizens, and Union citizen is anybody who is a citizen of a member state. British nationals residing in Bermuda are Union citizens and enjoy freedom of movement in the EU, even if the _territory_ of Bermuda is not part of the EU. > [@](#): > > There are restrictions on even British citizens without local status, never mind other EU citizens. > > See the rules for Bermuda, for example: Again, this is not what the OP asked for. The EU asked for freedom pof movement of exta-Europeans, such as Bermuda residents, in the EU, not freedom of movement of non-Bermuda EU citizens in Bermuda. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/33 "2010-12-26T15:22:13Z")
Well, I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree. Per post #22, I thought it is pretty clear the question is about who is allowed to live in one of those lovely tropical paradise instead of who is allowed to live in the mainland. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/34 "2010-12-26T16:18:52Z")
Why is canada a member of the ESA (European Space Association)? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/35 "2010-12-26T17:32:11Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > Thanks waterj2, I saw that page before, but my confusion stems from how to figure out which territories the EU residency privilege applies to. I don’t know what this thing I’m trying to find out is _called_, or what part of the EU rules it falls under. Is it “Schengen Area”, “Eurozone” or is it not mentioned at all on that page? It’s called “free movement of labour”. The single market is based on the free movement of labour (i.e. people), capital, goods and services. Neither “Schengen Area” nor “Eurozone” is relevant to your query. For example, the UK is outside the Schengen area (EU citizens are subject to passport control at points of entry) and outside the eurozone (their currency is the pound rather than the euro). BUT, the UK is within the single market, and any EU citizen (with the temporary exception of Romanians and Bulgarians) can live and work there without a visa. (Although **jjimm** ’s experience suggests that in some member states the reality does not always match up to the ideal.) For overseas territories (other than the French overseas départements, which are legally part of France), there is no general rule covering residency requirements - you have to investigate on a case-by-case basis. My list above was not intended to be complete - I have no idea what the residency requirements are for the Dutch territories in the Caribbean, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/36 "2010-12-26T19:46:24Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Well, I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree. Per post #22, I thought it is pretty clear the question is about who is allowed to live in one of those lovely tropical paradise instead of who is allowed to live in the mainland. You’re right there, apologies (seems I read that bit too sloppily). So the situation is that Bermuda citizens enjoy freedom of movement in the EU by virtue of their British nationality, whereas EU citizens do not enjoy it in Bermuda because EU law does not apply there. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/37 "2010-12-26T21:03:27Z")
No problem, sometimes it’s easy to read these things backward. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170/38 "2010-12-27T09:57:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Why is canada a member of the ESA (European Space Association)? The obvious, but not very satisfactory I admit, answer is: Because Canada chose to join ESA. There is a great deal of confusion about entities bearing the word “European” in its title. By far not everything that’s called “European” is affiliated with the EU, and some “European” institutions are different from the EU even though their name is confusingly similar to an EU organ or institution (the most prominent example is the Council of Europe, not to be confused with the European Council or the Council of the EU - the latter two belong to the EU system, the former is different). Same for ESA: It’s not an EU body, even though there is a great deal of overlap between ESA and the EU in membership. ESA was established on the basis of a separate treaty, and Canada chose to join. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-any-places-outside-europe-part-of-the-eu/565170.md?page=1)