# Are Are any "Western" or Christian countries more conservative than the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2002, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073 "2002-08-09T02:22:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/41 "2002-08-15T21:53:09Z")
I would argue that the U.S. has a generally more “liberal” attitude toward long-term immigrants than does the European West. In some Western (otherwise) Democracies you can literally \*\* NEVER\*\* become a citizen even unto third generation in country. FWIW and very unscientifically, I have anecdotally heard two or three times from immigrants who had been in Eurpoe first that the U.S. is more open and accommodating toward them than European countries, especially as far as the “people on the ground” go. I have not heard the reverse but this IS anecdotal & not scientific, more IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/42 "2002-08-16T18:33:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*My impression from the month I recently spent in Germany, and in conversation with locals and my co-workers, is that **both** cultures perceive each other as hopelessly conservative in some cases and hopelessly libertine in others. > > The nudity/sex question has already been addressed at length, but in most ways, Germans are less hung up about it than Americans are. After 10 p.m., full-frontal male and female nudity was not at all uncommon on television, nor was at least softcore pornography of the Skinemax/Showtime variety. (And even raunchier, in some cases.) > > One program, a variety-type show, had an act on that I could never imagine seeing on American cable television, including pay-per-view. It involved two men who appeared completely nude, and used their genitals to “do impersonations.” This involved grabbing and pulling on their penises and their scrotums to arrange them in different shapes. They even got volunteers from the audience to help them out. > > Not to mention the legalized prostitution in Germany. Right in the center of Frankfurt, just a few blocks from the Hauptbanhof and within walking distance of the business district, are brothels called “Eros Centers,” brimming with prostitutes. There are also private “nudist clubs” in Germany, called FKK Clubs, which are essentially brothels. > > But in other ways, there were some very conservative practices. The shops in Frankfurt close early during the week, at 7:00 p.m. That’s everything – grocery stores, shopping malls, general stores, the works. If you want to shop, you do it during work, usually at lunch. (And **everybody** takes lunch.) On Saturdays, hours are short, like 11:00 - 6:00. On Sundays, most everything is closed, except restaurants. It’s much like the “blue laws” in some American towns. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/43 "2002-08-16T18:43:44Z")
The hamsters must be getting tired, I just repeated someone’s post! I can’t retype everything I said right now, but I wanted to say that I never thought that limited shop hours were an expression of conservatism. It just means that European retailers prefer to stand down on the evenings and weekends, and give everyone a break. Probably that’s more liberal if anything. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/44 "2002-08-16T19:18:54Z")
Javaman, It depends. If the little shop at my street corner is closed is closed from noon to 3 pm, it’s because the owner thinks it has more important things to do at this time than working and selling things. But if the large department store in downtown Paris is closed on sunday, it’s because the law requires it (to protect the employees from being pressured into working during the week-end). Note that I do agree with this law, but it’s certainly not liberalism (though it’s not conservatism, either. Despite the sunday rest having its roots in christiannity, religion isn’t the reason why these laws exist today). Perhaps in the case of Germany (or at least some german landers which are rather conservative from a religious point of view) where this kind of laws tend to be stricter than in France, religion and conservatism play a more important part, though. I really don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/45 "2002-08-16T19:40:59Z")
Concerning immigration, I’m not convinced it’s a conservatism issue, but indeed it seems to me there are important differences in the way immigration is perceived. It doesn’t seem to be an US vs Europe thing, though, but more something grounded in national cultural expectations. For instance, taking countries which have a large immigrant population, in my limited understanding, things work roughly this way : -The UK seems to have a “communitarist” model. Immigrants can relatively easily become citizens, but would tend to live in somewhat separate communities, keeping their language, customs, etc… -France would tend to have an “integration” model : citizenship is relatively easy to get too (jus soli, roughly similar to the US) but they’re expected to become 100% french (socialy, culturaly, etc…) ASAP. -Germany would have a “separatist” model : citizenship is difficult to obtain (jus sanguini), and immigrants aren’t expected to become “germans”. Of course, these are gross generalizations, but law-makers as well as the population seem to have these models in mind when dealing with immigration issues or debatting about them. ---
**Author:** ![essohbee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71c47a/32.png) [@essohbee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/essohbee)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/46 "2002-08-16T19:48:47Z")
While it is true the swedish laws regarding narcotics are quite strict it’s otherwise a rather liberal country. After 10 pretty much anything goes on both state controlled and privately owned TV-stations. Seperation of state and church was completed in 2000. While there is a party with outspoken christian ideals, their support amongst the population is rather small. While we have high taxes and spend to much money on the defence it’s worth noting that health care and all state controlled education is free. Hmm… what else? Through the years I’ve had sex ed. 4 times during school and the attitude towards youth sexuality is often very open. The age of consent is set to 15. Next topic, gays. In Sweden gays can marry (or, rather, register partnership, it works as a marriage in all aspecs (IIRC) besides the fact that the church refuse to aknowledge it), they can do military service (which is still on conscription basis, although far from all have to do their service today) and they can adopt children. I also believe that officers are prohibited by the law to ask if a person is homosexual and if someone choose to come out, they are not removed from service. Speaking of the military, women are allowed into all branches and different services, but it is on a voluantary basis to apply. Once they have applied they have all the rights and duties as everyone else doing military service. And, oh, the death penalty is outlawed by the constitution. I think, as someone put it, more conservative in some ways, less in others. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/47 "2002-08-17T23:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GingerOfTheNorth \* > \*\*I have recently moved to the Eastern US, after being born and raised in Canada. I’m going to firmly say that Canada is more conservative in many ways, but more open in others. \*\* **Ginger,** care to elaborate a bit? I’d be interested in hearing your views. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/48 "2002-08-18T00:56:36Z")
One element I’m curious about from people who know lots of places is censorship. Like the various German laws restricting Nazi refernces and symbols. Growing up with the old "I may hate what you say, but I’ll fight for your right to say it " morality, it always seemed fairly restrictive. How do freedoms of speech compare in general.? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/49 "2002-08-18T13:30:36Z")
As far as I can tell, there’s no country where freedom of speech is viewed with more reverence than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![PETG57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f19dbf/32.png) [@PETG57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PETG57)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/50 "2013-02-10T08:47:27Z")
Cyprus, a member of the EU in eastern Mediterranean, is by far the most conservative Christian country. The majority of Cypriots are Greek Orthodox. I consider it the Ïran of the Christian world". ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/51 "2013-02-10T08:53:15Z")
And more necromancy. Do any Western or Christian countries still ban this abominable practice? ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/52 "2013-02-10T09:11:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And more necromancy. Do any Western or Christian countries still ban this abominable practice? Excuse me? ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/53 "2013-02-10T09:38:30Z")
Oh, that was humour. Forgive me, I didn’t recognise it at first. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/54 "2013-02-10T09:47:58Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > Oh, that was humour. Forgive me, I didn’t recognise it at first. The black magic of necromancy befuddled your perceptions. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/55 "2013-02-10T15:28:27Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > Oh, that was humour. Forgive me, I didn’t recognise it at first. Humor. It is a difficult concept. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/56 "2013-02-10T15:56:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Typically conservative countries in Europe include Austria (Jorg Haider, anyone), Bavaria and a smattering of others depending on your definition. Hoo-boy do you have a surprise coming, 2002 **pulykamell**. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/57 "2013-02-10T16:00:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And more necromancy. Do any Western or Christian countries still ban this abominable practice? Not bad, kid. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/58 "2013-02-11T05:19:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And more necromancy. Do any Western or Christian countries still ban this abominable practice? Necrophilia, yes. Necromancy I think has been off the books for a while in most countries. **Sparc** ’s information on Spain in 2002 was wrong, by the way (what “harsh drug laws”, for example - “it’s ok to consume, not to distribute” laws were already in place); **matt\_mcl** ’s was correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/59 "2013-02-11T06:44:25Z")
> [@Hemlock](#): > > The answer is pretty simple - there are 2 USAs. Look at a map of who voted Democrat and who voted Republican in the last general election. The big cosmopoltan cities around the coastal areas are at least as laid back and liberal as the trendy bits of Europe (in practice). The rural heartland is god-fearing and - what did Tom Lehrer say? “in the land of the boll weavil, where the laws are medieval…” Better to look at [this map,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gastner_map_purple_byarea_bycounty.png) based on the 2008 presidential election, and broken down by county. The divide is not North v. South, nor Coasts v. Heartland, it is City v. Countryside. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073/60 "2013-02-11T14:03:27Z")
If you consider the gay marriage issue, the US is ahead of most other western countries of a christian heritage. According to the [wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage), there are 11 countries where gay marriage is fully legal, and one of those, South Africa, doesn’t meet the OP’s requirement. There are three countries where it is available in some states within the country: the US, Mexico and Brazil. Don’t know if Mexico and Brazil meet the OP’s “western” requirement. That puts the US ahead of many western Christian countries (such as Germany, France and Italy, and the UK (although that one may change soon)) on this issue. Gay marriage is not fully accepted throughout the US, but it is available within the federation, and the tide seems to be moving generally in its favour. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-are-any-western-or-christian-countries-more-conservative-than-the-usa/123073.md?page=4)