# Are Asians discriminated against in admissions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136 "2006-11-12T19:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/1 "2006-11-12T19:27:33Z")
Original Wall Street Journal article: [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116321461412620634.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116321461412620634.html) Full text can be found at [http://logtk.blogspot.com/](http://logtk.blogspot.com/) > [@](#): > > During the Michigan campaign, a group that opposes affirmative action released a study bolstering claims that Asian students are held to a higher standard. The study, by the Center for Equal Opportunity, in Virginia, found that Asian applicants admitted to the University of Michigan in 2005 had a median SAT score of 1400 on the 400-1600 scale then in use. That was 50 points higher than the median score of white students who were accepted, 140 points higher than that of Hispanics and 240 points higher than that of blacks. > > Roger Clegg, president and general counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity, said universities are “legally vulnerable” to challenges from rejected Asian-American applicants. There seems to me to be overwhelming evidence, despite the smokescreen admissions boards try to kick up by vague assertions and consistent refusal to release statistics, that the current affirmative action policies discriminate against Asians. Not only have [studies](http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf) consistently shown that Asians are held to higher test-score standards, the surge in Asian admissions once states such as California remove such policies (statistics in article) eloquently demonstrate that fact. Unfortunately, despite the example of Mr. Li, it seems that most Asians lack the political will or leverage to change these policies; only by the mainstream push against these policies (re: Michigan) will this practice be reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/2 "2006-11-13T12:47:29Z")
What were the medians for submissions? While it’s true that “players accepted into Barça Basket are taller than players accepted into Barça Soccer”, well, hell, the tall guys go to the basket tryouts! PS: I went to graduate school in the States. In my program, GRE’s for foreigners accepted were over 150 points higher than for citizens accepted. GREs for foreigners rejected were higher than for citizens accepted. But you see: only one citizen had asked for admission and, due to the presence of a quota for citizens, she had no competition. We compited all right - but “foreigners” and “citizens” were two separate pools of applicants. In the case listed in the OP, I’m not sure whether there were two separate pools or simply a gap between two groups of the same pool. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/3 "2006-11-13T13:10:13Z")
**Nava** , in your example Spaniards and non-Spaniards (or EU and non-EU) are two distinct groups. In the USA this was all Americans, with different ethnic backgrounds. Some people here believe that all admissions should be blind to factors such as ethnicity, while others believe that some ethnic groups should get a preferred status because of socio-economic hardships. The problem becomes when an ethnic group gets penalised for doing too well. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/4 "2006-11-13T13:49:05Z")
[QUOTE=ShibbOleth] **Nava** , in your example Spaniards and non-Spaniards (or EU and non-EU) are two distinct groups. In the USA this was all Americans, with different ethnic backgrounds. Some people here believe that all admissions should be blind to factors such as ethnicity, while others believe that some ethnic groups should get a preferred status because of socio-economic hardships. The problem becomes when an ethnic group gets penalised for doing too well. [/QUOTE] Americans and non-Americans. What I was saying is, if “all foreigners” run separate from “all Americans”, with a quota for one of the two groups (in my example, Americans had a quota which never got filled for lack of applicants), you’re discriminating. If there had been no foreign rejects with GREs between those of the foreigner accepteds and that of the American, then there would have been no discrimination… even though we would still have had a bunch of foreigners with high GREs and a single American with a much lower GRE (and an unfilled quota). She would have been the next-best applicant to all of us and the “GRE hole” would have been coincidence, not discrimination. So without knowing the GPAs/SATs/whatever of the rejects for the groups listed in the OP, we can’t know whether the Asians are being discriminated against. There could be a bunch of Asians who happen to be the top applicants, then a group of middle applicants who are of other extracionts, and either no more Asians or some Asians in the lower end of the applicants. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/5 "2006-11-13T13:57:29Z")
Is the intention to hold down the numbers of Asians? Almost certainly not. Whereas, once upon a time, elite colleges definitely put obstacles in the way of Jewish applicants, simply because on anti-Jewish prejudice, I’d be astonished if admissions officers today were thinking, “We gotta keep out the #_%^_ CHinese!” But at some schools, the net result of admissions policies amounts to the same thing. There are some schools where black applicants are compared only to other black applicants, whites only to other whites, and Asians to other Asians, largely as a way of achieving a proper ethnic diversity. Suppose you went to an admissions officer at an elite college and described a hypothetical applicant. “He goes to a mid-level urban high school. He had a A- average, and an SAT score of 1200. What are his chances of acceptance?” The likely answer would be, “It depends on his ethnicity. If he’s black, yes, he’s in. If he’s white… close call. Probably not, but he might make it onto the waiting list. What, he’s Chinese? Sorry, no chance. There are just too many Asian applicants with stronger numbers.” ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/6 "2006-11-13T17:21:53Z")
Wall Street Journal, huh? I wonder if the author (or the sycophantic OP) read [this](http://diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_6480.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/7 "2006-11-13T17:51:18Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] …The likely answer would be, “It depends on his ethnicity. If he’s black, yes, he’s in. If he’s white… close call. Probably not, but he might make it onto the waiting list. What, he’s Chinese? Sorry, no chance. There are just too many Asian applicants with stronger numbers.” [/QUOTE] What if he didn’t put his race down? What if he only selected “African-American” because he’s American but had African ancestors (500K yrs ago)? AFAIK no college requires students to state their race or ethnicity on the application. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-asians-discriminated-against-in-admissions/380136/8 "2006-11-13T17:56:27Z")
Um…yeah. “Don’t blame the protected minorities, blame whites!” From something called “Diversity Online”, no less. Well let’s see… > [@](#): > > At that time, Dr. Michael S. Greve, a co-founder of the Center for Individual Rights, wrote that it was “an opportunity to call, on behalf of a racial minority (i.e., the Asian applicants), for an end to discrimination.” It was an appeal that, when made on behalf of Whites, is politically hopeless and, perhaps, no longer entirely respectable. His candid admission reveals how Asian Americans are being used and abused, to their own detriment as well as that of African-Americans and Latinos. Right…which is why pretty much all court cases against Affirmative Action are spearheaded by whites, right? The very fact of the claim in the OP shows that Asians too feel that they are being shafted; they are not simply puppets of Whitey as the article would claim. Essentially the whole article is trying to poison the well of anti-AA sentiment, with absolutely no support for their claims. > [@](#): > > It would not be productive, however, for us to believe that Asian Americans must oppose Blacks and Latinos, as the face of the nation changes profoundly and irrevocably. Let’s leave aside that opposing AA is now immediately equivalent to “opposing Blacks and Latinos”, conveniently ignoring many representatives of those groups that are also opposed to AA. Why shouldn’t Asians be against a system that unfairly penalizes them and distributes the benefits elsewhere? But to get to the real crux of the article, which is that since Asians are held to a higher standard than white applicants, affirmative action doesn’t hurt them. That is not only a laughable display of illogic, it overlooks the fact that that discrimination is a _result_ of affirmative action. Affirmative action does not say “let’s give a nice boost to all minorities”, it’s “let’s boost those who fall below standards.” Well, it should be clear that since Asians fall _above_ standards, they would be penalized by that system relative to other groups, including, no matter how you choose to look at it (whites getting a bonus for underperforming, or Asians getting penalized for overperforming). That article’s arguments are without merit.