# Are Atheists better Christians than Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296 "2011-04-21T23:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/41 "2011-04-22T14:02:43Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > Raindog, to simplify: > > From my understanding, the Judeo-Christianity states that god is incomprehensible and it also states that pride is the worst sin; therefore, doesn’t that make it a sin to claim to know god? You understanding is incorrect on both these points. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/42 "2011-04-22T14:03:40Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I’m not going for the biblical answer. [but atheists make up 0.2% of prison population in the US](http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Percentage_of_atheists), while they make up 6 ~ 9 % of the total population. > > So either atheists don’t get caught as much, people convert a lot in prison (not unlikely) or atheists really commit less crimes that land you in prison (for reasons which may only correlated to their atheism, such as income and education). As an atheist, I’d like to be able to say that atheists are just less likely to commit crimes, but I think it’s actually because there are tangible benefits to professing a belief. Safety in numbers, a sense of belonging, and “being a good Christian” probably makes it a lot easier to get early parole. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Atheism exists outside the US, and yes, some atheists have done similar or worse things in the last century in other places. The various communist regimes come immediately to mind. Oh, look. Someone else didn’t pay attention in history class, or to all the times this claim has been debunked here and elsewhere on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/43 "2011-04-22T15:00:40Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > Non-theist Atheists seem to be better Christians than Christians. If pride is the worse sin and god is incomprehensible, any god claim would be a sin. Non-theistic atheists do not make such bold statements of truth in regards to god; therefore, they do not commit the same sin. This depends on a number of factors. I’m not sure that pride is the worst sin or that sin should be presupposed if you are going to also say that god is incomprehensible. If you are going to say God is incomprehensible then it seems to me that the discussion comes to a full stop. In fact, I’m not sure that any sort of talk about “God” is coherent in that case. As to claims about truth and atheists - some atheists make bold claims and others are tentative. The same is true with theists. Basically with regard to the general question, are atheists better Christians then Christians? I’d say, some are, some aren’t. Taking a broader scope on the issue then just ‘pride’, I’d have to say that it’s hard for me to measure up to some Christians in what I consider to be a supreme good. For instance, I was recently reading about Saint Kolbe and it’s hard for me to even think about doing what he did ([see here](http://www.auschwitz.dk/kolbe.htm)). **Even if I were single**. Even if I had already lived a long and fulfilling life and were already near death anyway. His self sacrifice is awe inspiring. > [@](#): > > A Protestant doctor who treated the patients in Block 12 later recalled how Father Kolbe waited until all the others had been treated before asking for help. He constantly sacrificed himself for the others. > > In order to discourage escapes, Auschwitz had a rule that if a man escaped, ten men would be killed in retaliation. In July 1941 a man from Kolbe’s bunker escaped. The dreadful irony of the story is that the escaped prisoner was later found drowned in a camp latrine, so the terrible reprisals had been exercised without cause. But the remaining men of the bunker were led out. > > ‘The fugitive has not been found!’ the commandant Karl Fritsch screamed. ‘You will all pay for this. Ten of you will be locked in the starvation bunker without food or water until they die.’ The prisoners trembled in terror. A few days in this bunker without food and water, and a man’s intestines dried up and his brain turned to fire. > > The ten were selected, including Franciszek Gajowniczek, imprisoned for helping the Polish Resistance. He couldn’t help a cry of anguish. ‘My poor wife!’ he sobbed. ‘My poor children! What will they do?’ When he uttered this cry of dismay, Maximilian stepped silently forward, took off his cap, and stood before the commandant and said, ‘I am a Catholic priest. Let me take his place. I am old. He has a wife and children.’ > > Astounded, the icy-faced Nazi commandant asked, ‘What does this Polish pig want?’ > > Father kolbe pointed with his hand to the condemned Franciszek Gajowniczek and repeated ‘I am a Catholic priest from Poland; I would like to take his place, because he has a wife and children.’ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/44 "2011-04-22T15:04:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Atheism exists outside the US, and yes, some atheists have done similar or worse things in the last century in other places. The various communist regimes come immediately to mind. Please reread my post, and try to answer accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/45 "2011-04-22T15:18:14Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, they suck on the “Belief that Jesus is the son of God” part of Christianity, at least. But we think that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all on the same footing. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/46 "2011-04-22T17:53:12Z")
> [@Knigel](#): > > 1. God is unknowable > 2. Pride is a sin > 3. Therefore, claiming to know god is a sin. This argument has all sorts of problems (many of which have already been pointed out) and won’t do what you want it to. And if it _were_ valid, it wouldn’t prove that atheists are any better than Christians, because atheists “claim to know” God doesn’t exist. Are some who call/consider themselves atheists more “Christian” (more Christlike, or closer to the Christian ideal, or more pleasing to the Christian God) than some who call/consider themselves Christians? Sure. [QUOTE=Jesus] Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/47 "2011-04-22T19:51:20Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > For instance, I was recently reading about Saint Kolbe and it’s hard for me to even think about doing what he did You know what might have been a better ending to the story? He gets close enough to make the offer to sacrifice himself and then launches himself at the Nazi commandant and bites his throat out. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/48 "2011-04-22T20:14:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have atheists ever banded together under that banner to support slavery? Oppose desegregation? Support the death penalty? Ban books? Burn books? Censor movies, radio or television? Propose or support legislation that discriminates? All atheists haven’t. But then, neither have all Christians. A subset of atheists–political radicals in the Soviet Union, the People’s Republic of China, Kampuchea, and other places–established brutally repressive totalitarian regimes which killed scores of millions of people in the name of an explicitly atheistic ideology. However, one could not reasonably claim that atheism was the cause for these crimes any more than one could reasonably claim that theism was the cause for the Inquistion or the Muslim invasions of India. I will not address the OP. That post is one of the silliest I’ve ever seen on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/49 "2011-04-22T20:47:49Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > All atheists haven’t. But then, neither have all Christians. A subset of atheists–political radicals in the Soviet Union, the People’s Republic of China, Kampuchea, and other places–established brutally repressive totalitarian regimes which killed scores of millions of people in the name of an explicitly atheistic ideology. However, one could not reasonably claim that atheism was the cause for these crimes any more than one could reasonably claim that theism was the cause for the Inquistion or the Muslim invasions of India. > > I will not address the OP. That post is one of the silliest I’ve ever seen on this board. Two responses, and both have (deliberately?) misread what I wrote just to sneak in that ol’ Commie bugaboo. Would it be asking to much to get an intellectually honest response? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/50 "2011-04-22T21:49:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Two responses, and both have (deliberately?) misread what I wrote just to sneak in that ol’ Commie bugaboo. Would it be asking to much to get an intellectually honest response? That “ol’ Commie bugaboo” killed more than a hundred million people in the 20th century, which makes your adolescent attempt to sneer it away contemptible. You got intellectually honest responses. What you can’t seem to come up with is an intellectually honest response of your own. A sneer is not an argument. Try to keep that in mind for your future posts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/51 "2011-04-23T08:12:40Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > That “ol’ Commie bugaboo” killed more than a hundred million people in the 20th century, which makes your adolescent attempt to sneer it away contemptible. You got intellectually honest responses. What you can’t seem to come up with is an intellectually honest response of your own. > > A sneer is not an argument. Try to keep that in mind for your future posts. Please note the emboldened words: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have atheists ever banded together **under that banner** to support slavery? Oppose desegregation? Support the death penalty? Ban books? Burn books? Censor movies, radio or television? Propose or support legislation that discriminates? Care to try again? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/52 "2011-04-23T15:09:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please note the emboldened words:Care to try again? IMO, that’s the major problem with trying to determine motives behind positive or negative actions. Even if people declare that it’s under a specific banner the motives might be something else, or part of a manipulation by the few with their own agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/53 "2011-04-23T15:16:41Z")
Communism was just another religion. The the standard attempts to pretend it was an atheist movement _qua_ atheism are just wishful thinking. Communism was worship of the state. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/54 "2011-04-24T04:17:14Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > No, and [on average, we also know more about religion than religious people](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html) [No you don’t.](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-science-of-disestimation) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/55 "2011-04-24T04:45:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Communism was just another religion. The the standard attempts to pretend it was an atheist movement _qua_ atheism are just wishful thinking. Communism was worship of the state. No. It was an ideology, but not all ideologies are religious ideologies. If you’re going to define it as a “religion”, it, or at least Marxism/Marxist Leninism, is an atheist religion, because materialism was and still is a pretty fundamental part of it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/56 "2011-04-25T19:33:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Communism was just another religion. The the standard attempts to pretend it was an atheist movement _qua_ atheism are just wishful thinking. Communism was worship of the state. Noting similarities doesn’t make it a religion. IMO, all it shows is that simple belief or non belief is not in and of itself a negative or a positive, and depending on contributing factors, either is capable of good or evil. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/57 "2011-04-25T19:40:27Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [No you don’t.](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-science-of-disestimation) I think based on numbers it is probably true. There are many more believers than atheists and the % probably are that more believers get a one sided education on their faith and the faith of others based on preconceived notions rather than a more subjective fact based examination. I’d be interested in seeing how many atheists are former believers who arrived at atheism through some study. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/58 "2011-04-26T11:11:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think based on numbers it is probably true. There are many more believers than atheists and the % probably are that more believers get a one sided education on their faith and the faith of others based on preconceived notions rather than a more subjective fact based examination. I’d be interested in seeing how many atheists are former believers who arrived at atheism through some study. It looks to me like most of the Atheists on this board anyway, were raised in some religion, thought about it , questioned it, then dropped it, and became atheists. There were some ministers on TV I believe it was ABC Nightly News, they said they no longer believed, but kept preaching because they needed the job! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/59 "2011-04-27T00:57:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Communism was just another religion. The the standard attempts to pretend it was an atheist movement _qua_ atheism are just wishful thinking. Communism was worship of the state. :rolleyes: Communism was explicitly atheistic, materialistic, and secularist. To pretend that these doctrines were not central to the ideology and the movement is willful denial. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296/60 "2011-04-27T01:23:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please note the emboldened words:Care to try again? I don’t really need to try again as the point is already made, but the fact remains that millions flocked to the red banners of communism, banners which explicitly stood for atheism, materialism, and secularism, and in so doing made the twentieth century the bloodiest century in human history. Now, if you’re going to try to attach a stigma to religion in general, and Christianity in particular, because of crimes committed in its name, then you must yourself be prepared to be judged by the same standards. \*\*No matter how you look at it, radical secularists killed more than a hundred million people in the twentieth century, they killed them in the name of explicitly atheistic and materialist doctrines, and this can’t be shrugged off with some silly word games by anyone who wants to be taken seriously by anyone with common sense and common decency. \*\* It’s no good to say that they somehow weren’t really communists or that communism was somehow a religion in any strict sense of that term, or to claim that the horrors committed in the name of dialectical materialism somehow didn’t have anything to do with dialectical materialism. The fact remains that men singing the praises of science, progress and reason committed many of the worst horrors in human history, and it will always be appropriate for Christians to throw this fact in the faces of atheists who try to stigmatise Christianity as being somehow bloody and inhumane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-better-christians-than-christians/579296.md?page=4)