# Are atheists second class citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276 "2004-04-05T01:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/21 "2004-04-06T02:15:09Z")
I would be interested in how Wikipedia verified the quote. I suspect it is somewhat like **blowero** ’s quotes - some years after the fact, and not much verification other than it got repeated a lot. > [@](#): > > …it’s not exactly the kind of thing that would have run in the New York Times the next day. I disagree. It is **exactly** the sort of thing that would have been run in the New York Times. And run, and run, and run. This was an election campaign, and something that could have been spun against Bush _ad infinitum_. And would have been, if it had really happened. What **Zagadka** says. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/22 "2004-04-06T03:19:26Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Is there an organized conspiracy to deny fundamental rights to atheists? There is, indeed, an organized conspiracy (or movement, whatever), to deny fundamental rights to atheists, and to turn the U.S. into a Christian theocracy with a legal code based on the Old Testament. It is known as Christian Reconstructionism. See [http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2004-03-25/cover.html](http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2004-03-25/cover.html). It remains a minority movement, even with respect to the much larger Christian social-conservative movement. Christians and other theists have a lot of symbolic advantages (our national motto being “In God We Trust,” and all that) implying a higher degree of legitimacy for their viewpoint in the public sphere. But the First Amendment still lives, and American atheists are not second-class citizens (yet), except in the sense that, cultural-religious conditions here being what they are, it is very, very hard for a principled and outspoken atheist to get elected to an important public office, whereas it is relatively easy for a principled and outspoken Christian (of practically any denomination) to do so. I don’t see what can be done about that. But give us enough time, and I expect there will come a day when America (like Britain and most of Europe, now) can reasonably be described as a “post-Christian” society. May it come sooner rather than later! DOWN CHRIST! ---
**Author:** ![Okaybear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc348/32.png) [@Okaybear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okaybear)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/23 "2004-04-06T05:53:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But give us enough time, and I expect there will come a day when America (like Britain and most of Europe, now) can reasonably be described as a “post-Christian” society. May it come sooner rather than later! DOWN CHRIST! Wow, some pretty heavy words there, BrainGlutton. “Down Christ”? I’m sure you’re just letting off some (admittedly valid) steam, but I don’t see as there’s any reason to land blows on Christ (the man I take as Savior and God, yes) in your post. The second I rant against atheism, I invite you to do the same about my beliefs, ok? First, I think that whether or not atheists are considered “second-class citizens” depends largely on the social setting we’re talking about here. Atheists are not excluded from the rights and liberties afforded by the Constitution, and unless the Southern Baptist Convention picks up some serious steam, it’s not likely they will be shipped off to the ghetto anytime soon. Now, if you want to talk about various social/cultural settings, I’d say there’s pretty much an even split as to which side gets the shaft. (When was the last time you heard the term “Atheist-freak”?) I catch flack all the time for being a staunch Christian from friends of mine who ask how I can possibly be a part of such an “intolerant” religion. Throw in a few Pat Buchanans or Jerry Falwells and it seems that we all get labeled as bigots or Bible-thumpers. I know my experience can’t be generalized to everyone, but I also know I’m not the only Christian who gets a little hot under the color for every smarmy sit-com joke that television chooses to throw at my faith, or for the crooked looks I get if I choose to carry around a Bible. I’m not saying that atheists have it any easier - heck, I cringe at the church down the road that interrupts people’s lives to go door-to-door “evangelizin’”. I also realize that politicians from all parties have a tendency to use a sort of touchy-feely, watered-down Christianity to make them appear “godly”. But do any of these things make ANY of us second-class citizens? No, it just makes us (rightfully) peeved sometimes. Ask me sometime about what my Christian friends think about the fact that I’m an out and proud queer, however, and I’ll rant about what it REALLY means to be a second-class citizen. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/24 "2004-04-06T06:45:35Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Quote: > UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks. > > This doesn’t prove that he said it- it just proves that the various atheist organizations are angry that they heard he said it. Organizations get upset over rumors all the time. Yes, so it’s fortunate that I _didn’t say_ that proved it, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/25 "2004-04-06T06:59:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I disagree. It is **exactly** the sort of thing that would have been run in the New York Times. And run, and run, and run. This was an election campaign, and something that could have been spun against Bush _ad infinitum_. And would have been, if it had really happened. I note your disagreement, but I still don’t think you’re correct. I think your personal feelings color what kinds of things you believe make the news. And the fact is, disdain for atheists _in and of itself_ does not make the news. What makes news is when _theists_ get upset. For example, I never read any stories about how the 10 Commandments were posted in a courthouse, UNTIL they were ordered removed. And I never read any stories about the “under God” part of the pledge of allegiance being forced on schoolchildren, UNTIL an atheist sued, and theists got all hot under the collar about it. So I wouldn’t expect the fact that George Bush had disdain for atheists to be a big news story. The government shows its disdain for atheists _all the time_, and it _never_ gets written up in the papers until a _theist_ gets upset. So I reiterate my belief that, had the event happened, it wouldn’t necessarily have been in all the papers. I agree that there is doubt as to whether it happened or not, but I don’t believe you have disproved it in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/26 "2004-04-06T13:32:26Z")
Well, in Texas it seems that atheists are not allowed to serve in public office (never mind the lack of logic in the following statement): > [@](#): > > No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, **provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.** [Texas State Constitution, article 1, section 4](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/txconst/sections/cn000100-000400.html) This would also seem to exclude Hindus and Shintoists. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/27 "2004-04-07T04:16:46Z")
> [@LateComer](#): > > This would also seem to exclude Hindus and Shintoists. But, oddly enough, I think it means that Satan worshippers _would_ qualify for public office. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/28 "2004-04-07T19:06:23Z")
This atheist _certainly_ feels marginalized and oppressed by our overwhelmingly religious culture. A _de facto_ disqualification for medium-to-high public office is quite a bit more than a “weak spot.” No, we’re not being shipped to the ghettos :rolleyes:, but there are [many things](http://www.sptimes.com/2002/03/14/State/_ATHEIST__plate_raise.shtml) we cannot take for granted. (The state [changed its mind](http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheist6.htm) later, but the issue should never even have been fucking raised.) ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/29 "2004-04-08T14:22:43Z")
Just as an aside - i dont live in USA so cant really help the discussion, but if you say you’re an atheist in Britain, no-one will bat an eyelid. I dont know anyone who regularly goes to any church ! At the same time all the political leaders here say they are christian etc. Is there something about holding office which subtly forces you to say you are a christian. Surely its not just about getting votes… is it? Sorry for hijack - but i think its usefull information. sin ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/30 "2004-04-08T14:36:49Z")
> [@sinical brit](#): > > Just as an aside - i dont live in USA so cant really help the discussion, but if you say you’re an atheist in Britain, no-one will bat an eyelid. I dont know anyone who regularly goes to any church ! I know very few people who regularly go to church… and yet I know very, very few atheists. Not going to church and not believing in a divine being or beings are two very different things. I’m not denying that atheism is more accepted outside of the US (I really don’t know); I just wanted to clarify the difference between someone who doesn’t go to church and an atheist. I think my pagan friend would probably be annoyed if he were assumed to be an atheist just because he doesn’t go to church… ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/31 "2004-04-08T14:40:38Z")
> [@Okaybear](#): > > Wow, some pretty heavy words there, BrainGlutton. “Down Christ”? I’m sure you’re just letting off some (admittedly valid) steam, but I don’t see as there’s any reason to land blows on Christ (the man I take as Savior and God, yes) in your post. The second I rant against atheism, I invite you to do the same about my beliefs, ok? Since **BrainGlutton** wasn’t addressing you I take it that we now have to check with every Christian in the world before saying something negative towards Christianity. I’m with him. Down Christ. If you want to debate that, we’re here. If it offends you, go somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/32 "2004-04-08T17:50:20Z")
This is a bit dated, but for what it’s worth, [here’s the story](http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/december95/zellner.html) of how one atheist college professor was persecuted and harassed by his Christian neighbors. > [@](#): > > A series of events that began in the fall of 1991, six years after moving to Ada, Oklahoma, where I am a university professor, has changed my attitude toward Christians, particularly fundamentalists. A local newspaper asked students, “Who is the worst professor on campus?” One girl, a member of a fundamentalist church, answered, “I don’t take Dr. Zellner’s classes because he is an atheist.” My immediate reaction was okay, don’t. I have never had a problem filling classrooms. > > But the student’s comment touched off a wave of hostility. Our car was vandalized to the tune of $543 – Praise Jesus! I began getting damning notes from students (most left anonymously under my office door). We received threatening telephone calls at home, insisting that we get out of town. A fellow professor (now at Oral Roberts University where he belongs) sent me a seven page letter, accusing me of being in league with Satan. > > One Apostolic church made up campaign-type buttons in a buyer’s choice of yellow, blue, and pink, which read “I am praying for Dr. Zellner.” They sold for a dollar each. I was later told by one of their number that when I didn’t repent, they prayed that God remove my miserable soul from this earth. > > Worst of all, our children, who have been taught not to discuss religion with anyone, were shunned and beaten. My daughter, six years old at the time, lost playmates. And my nine-year-old son was attacked during a little-league baseball game by two Baptist children. He couldn’t understand why they wanted to hurt him. Explaining bigotry to children is difficult. ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276/33 "2004-04-09T10:28:51Z")
Jon the Geek - yeh, i agree with your point. Church attendance and religion are not really related . I should have said that i dont actually know any religous people at all ! I was just illustrating that i think the UK is not a religous country ( any more ) yet politicians still HAVE to point out how “christian” they are… whatever THAT means?? sin [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atheists-second-class-citizens/238276.md?page=1)