Are atheists who aren’t materialists truly atheists?

θειότης denotes the divine quality or attribute itself, perceived in or through what’s been made - fair correction on that specific point. It doesn’t change what the line was doing, though. Whatever θειότης ultimately denotes, and you may be right that it’s incoherent, that’s a separate question from whether Zeus has the qualities that actually marked something as a god to the Greeks in the first place.

Different failure modes, and those examples were never circular to begin with, so they were never carrying a circular definition on their own. That point wasn’t doing the work for circularity anyway, circularity got a direct answer in the same post: the omni-properties definition and Anselm’s, neither of which defines god in terms of itself, divine, spirit, or supernatural. The energy/species point was answering a narrower claim, that ambiguity or incompleteness at the edges disqualifies a term from serious use, which is exactly what those fields disprove every day. Two different jobs, two different paragraphs, both still standing.

That’s the list growing again. God, divine, supernatural, spirit got named and cleared. Now it’s good and everything too, added once the first set was met.

Extrapolating a graded property to its limiting case isn’t unique to theology, and it doesn’t strip a term of its referent. Science runs on exactly this move: a frictionless surface is “low friction” pushed all the way to zero, an ideal gas is real-gas behavior pushed to its limiting case, absolute zero is “cold” pushed to its theoretical limit. None of those lack a clear referent just because they’re unreachable; the limiting case is the referent, even if nothing physical sits exactly on it. Predictions get derived from them, and nobody waits for a real frictionless surface before letting the concept into a textbook.

“Knows everything” works the same way: for every true proposition, this being knows it; for every false one, it doesn’t believe it. “Can do anything logically possible” is the same shape: for every state of affairs that isn’t a contradiction in terms, this being can bring it about. Neither requires anyone to enumerate every true proposition, any more than “no largest prime” requires someone to list the primes; the predicate is determinate, our ability to check it by hand is a separate question. “Good” follows the same structure: “perfectly good” means acting, in every case, the way the correct moral theory turns out to say one should act. That’s the same extrapolation already happening with the other two - pushing “behaves morally” to its limiting case - not a separate metaphysical add-on. And if there turns out to be no correct moral theory for any of this to track, that’s not a problem unique to this definition. It would undercut “behave morally” too, since that’s the exact phrase this objection started from.

Strong claim, but it doesn’t hold up. Every attested use of θειότης I can find is Hellenistic-era or later - a Jewish wisdom text, Philo, Plutarch, Lucian - centuries after Zeus worship was already old, with no evidence it was ever common vocabulary for ordinary worship. Strip that one late, obscure word out of the picture entirely, and Zeus still has what actually marked something as a theos to the Greeks: immortality, and power far beyond any mortal’s. He’s not just generically powerful, either; he controls the weather, throws actual lightning, and rules as king over the other gods and over Olympus. None of that depends on θειότης. A Greek worshipper didn’t need a philosophical term for “the divine quality” to know the difference between a being who does those things and one who doesn’t - the difference was right there, plain and checkable, long before anyone wrote θειότης down.

So no, remove that one word, and Zeus doesn’t stop being a god to them. He stops having one more late, obscure label attached to a status he already had on every other ground.

Voyager’s making the same distinction already on the table here from a few exchanges back. A four-sided triangle necessarily can’t exist, because “4-sided” and “triangle” directly contradict each other by definition, but that’s not the same thing as the concept being meaningless. We know exactly which conditions would have to hold for a four-sided triangle to exist, and that’s precisely how we know it can’t. That’s a hallmark of a derivable contradiction, not a hallmark of meaninglessness.

Coherence theory of truth is about what makes a proposition true: that it fits with a wider system of beliefs, rather than matching the facts directly, the way the rival correspondence theory has it. That’s a theory about truth conditions, not specifically about whether a single term is well-defined on its own. And even within that theory, coherence is mostly just consistency, not contradicting the rest of what’s held. Same bar already on the table.

So granting your terminology for this exchange, incoherent, exemplified by the four-sided triangle, the question stands as it did before: where’s the equivalent contradiction for “knows everything” or “can do anything logically possible”? The triangle fails because two of its own defining terms are directly incompatible. That’s the bar. Difficulty picturing an extrapolation to an unlimited degree isn’t that kind of failure.

Two different things are getting collapsed together here. Self-description carries real weight for identity and community categories - “Christian,” “Mormon,” that kind of label has centuries of doctrine and communal recognition behind it. “Negative atheism” isn’t that. It’s a one-line description of a psychological state: do you currently hold the belief that a god exists. Nobody’s asking you to join anything or accept a label you don’t want in casual conversation. This isn’t about overriding your self-identification, it’s that two things you’ve said both land on the same descriptive fact. You’ve told us directly that you have no opinion and when pressed on whether you hold the belief, your answer was that you wouldn’t always know, since people keep using meaningless terms for talking about the question. That’s not an isolated remark; it’s the same position running through this entire thread: that the underlying claim is meaningless, which, if true, means there’s no proposition there for anyone to believe, yourself included. That’s what “lacking the belief” means. You can decline the word for it. The fact underneath the word doesn’t move because the word gets declined.

There’s also a real distinction getting lost here, and it’s not just about getting Zeus right. Zeus was never defined with maximal or infinite properties - strong but not infinitely so, immortal but born of specific parents, with a genealogy and a bounded set of powers. Your “transition to using words without a clear referent” objection is specifically about pushing a graded property to its unlimited extreme - “very knowledgeable” to “knows everything,” “very powerful” to “can do anything logically possible.” Spinoza’s “eternal and infinite essence” fits that shape. Zeus doesn’t. So that objection was never going to reach him, and “equally meaningless” was shakier ground than it looked. That matters beyond just Zeus, because you used him as evidence that the incoherence problem isn’t limited to the monotheistic “God”, that it extends to any sufficiently loaded god-concept. Take that evidence away, and there’s also this: in that same thread you linked to make this self-description point, you drew a line yourself, back in 2021 - “I believe the concept of God (not ‘a god’) is incoherent. That does not make me an atheist.” That shield was always specifically for “God,” never for “a god” generally. Zeus is about as clean a case of “a god” as exists. By your own framework, the shield was never supposed to reach him, which means on Zeus specifically, there’s nothing left to fall back on but ordinary non-belief, the same status you’re disputing for “God” itself.

Every reply above contests a definition, a word’s scope, a derivable contradiction, or a label - θειότης, circularity, what “good” or “everything” extrapolate to, whether Zeus and Spinoza’s god even belong in the same bucket, whether “atheist” applies to you at all. None of it touches the thing underneath all of it. You’ve told us directly that you have no opinion and having no opinion on whether something exists is what lacking the belief that it exists looks like. Separately, you’ve argued the underlying claim itself is meaningless, which, if true, means there’s no proposition there for anyone to believe, including you. Two different routes, same conclusion: no belief is present. That’s not a side issue waiting on these fights to resolve. That’s what’s actually been on the table the whole time.

Literally my first post on the subject in this thread:

My emphasis.

Who in this thread said that? Because the only theological noncognitivist in this thread I’m aware of definitely has not said he “does not believe in [Gods]”. That’s a classic strawman.

This is precisely the case.

Are rocks atheists?

Nontheist.

Of course it is.

Tendency =/= certainty.

No - θειότης is what marked gods as gods.

Different magisteria entirely.

Of course - the more the theist fumbles for a definition, the more the list grows. That’s because meaninglessness breeds meaninglessness.

Science acknowledges that all of those are … fictions. Don’t actually exist and are unatainable.

But Science isn’t arguing that those things actually exist. When theology argues that deity does, the incoherence becomes of relevance in a way the incoherence of science’s fictions do not.

The incoherence only matters when the thing that is incoherent is supposed to actually have all the properties attributed to it. Science doesn’t pretend its absolutes exist, so their coherence (and they are incoherent) doesn’t matter to their utility.

I don’t have an issue with enumerating aspects of a god. That’s not where the incoherence lies. The incoherent bit is in “has all those properties AND exists”

Now you’re just pushing out the meaningless to knows and believes.

You must see the inherent circularity in that argument.

Which moral theory would that be? Because for all the religions I know, it’s “act according to how god wants you to act”, which is - say it with me now…

True - Homer uses θεῖος. Same-same, though.

Nope. This is just “agnostics are atheists” all over again.

Is meaningless =/= must always be meaningless. I hold out the possibility of a coherent definition of god for me to decide on.

I don’t think you are defective, or not human. Any more than i think a tone deaf person is defective, or not human. Or someone who isn’t moved to move to music isn’t human. I certainly don’t think these traits are universal, but i think they are very common among humans, and mostly inborn to those who have the trait. It’s only the form it takes that is learned, what kind of dance, what kind of God.

My analogy is between a self-proclaimed athiest who lacks belief in materialism and a self-proclaimed woman who was born with male anatomy. The underlying question is why one definition prevails over the other, in each case: athiest as a form of materialism v. mere lack of belief in God; woman as sex assigned at birth v. present gender identity. You introduced Christians who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. As Czarcasm pointed out, your analogy does not demonstrate absurdity unless we assume Christianity means belief in divinity of Jesus, which corresponds to the conclusion being probed by the atheist/woman analogy. If you assume your definition of atheism is correct, then there’s no debate to be had as to whether an athiest needs to believe in materialism, is there?

~Max

Maybe. Or maybe you’re an improved model, one lacking the usual design flaw. Who am I to say?

Yeah, evolution works in mysterious ways. Sad thing I have no offspring…

No there isn’t and I don’t understand why anyone would think there would be to be honest. There is absolutely nothing in the word or concept of atheism that requires one to be materialist. In fact the vast majority of atheists are non-materialists. What’s the atheist position on ghosts or Bigfoot or UFOs or Moon hoax conspiracy theories? Who knows. Whatever the individual wants. Atheism does not touch these topics any more than it touches politics or ice cream flavor preferences. Why does having non-belief in God suggest that this person has to have non-belief and all of those other things?

There’s no reason to ascribe the belief of materialism to be a necessary component to atheism. Why would there be? If we say that someone doesn’t believe in demons but they do believe in a ghosts or Bigfoot or life after death would you say that their belief is internally inconsistent because anyone who doesn’t believe in demons must therefore be a materialist and therefore disbelieve all of these other things? If not then why does it atheism which is just the non-belief one one particular category of supernatural identity require that one also believe in no other supernatural entities? It doesn’t make sense at all. Atheism only covers belief in God or gods. Why would it have to cover it literally every other issue on which there can be any sort of metaphysical or supernatural belief? This is just another example of people loading up the term atheism with whatever meaning they decide to even when it makes no sense. Before you decide that I’m making up my own arbitrary definitions of atheism I’m using the most plain and obvious possible reading of the word, literally a-theism, which is the default state a human being is born with.

But how small can a god get while still being a god? Is animism compatible with atheism? What about ancestor worship? Lares and Penates? Is there really a difference between leaving out a bowl of milk for the brownies, and sacrificing a bull for Zeus, except for scale?

That’s a flat assertion against a specific, sourced claim - every attested use of θειότης being Hellenistic-era or later, with no evidence it was common worship vocabulary - and it comes with nothing behind it. No citation, no example, no engagement with the dating problem. Worth flagging now, too, because of what happens later in this same post: when that exact dating point comes up again, you don’t actually dispute it. You say “true,” and reach for a different word, θεῖος, to fill the gap. If θειότης genuinely were what marked gods as gods, there’d be no need to swap in a different word the moment the dating problem gets raised. The retreat is itself evidence the original assertion didn’t have anything behind it.

Declaring two domains entirely separate doesn’t actually answer the point it’s replying to. The energy/species comparison was about a logical distinction - imprecision at the edges of a definition isn’t the same failure as circularity and that distinction doesn’t become inapplicable just because the examples happened to come from science. Whether a definition is circular is a question about structure, not subject matter; it applies the same way in math, biology, or theology. This gets unpacked further down, where there’s a fuller version of the science/theology distinction but as a one-line dismissal here, it doesn’t touch what it’s responding to.

Start with the claim that frictionless surfaces and ideal gases “are incoherent.” They’re not. There’s no contradiction in “a surface with zero frictional force” - it’s a perfectly coherent description of a state of affairs that real materials just never achieve. That’s a fact about physics, not about logic. Compare that to something actually incoherent, like a married bachelor: there’s no possible world where that exists, full stop, because the terms cancel each other out by definition. Nothing real materials do or don’t achieve has any bearing on that. “Unattainable” and “incoherent” are different failures, and frictionless surfaces are only ever guilty of the first one.

So when you say the incoherence only matters once existence gets asserted - fine, that’s a fair point about why it would matter, if it were there. But it doesn’t establish that it’s there. You’ve now relocated the entire claim to a single, very specific spot: not the omni-properties themselves anymore (“I don’t have an issue with enumerating aspects of a god, that’s not where the incoherence lies” which, notably, walks back the earlier “knows everything”/“can do anything logically possible” objection almost entirely), but the conjunction of having those properties and existing. That’s a new, narrower claim, and it’s exactly as unsupported as the θειότης one. What’s the actual contradiction between “exists” and “knows every true proposition, can do anything logically possible, perfectly good”? Not an intuition that it feels off, an actual derivable contradiction, the kind demanded for the four-sided triangle. Asserting that the conjunction is where the incoherence lives isn’t showing that it is.

Tidy explanation, but notice what it does in practice: each definition that’s actually come up in this exchange - the omni-properties, “perfectly good,” even the restatement using “knows” and “believes” gets the same verdict, meaningless, without ever clearing the bar already set earlier in this same exchange: a derivable contradiction, the kind “4-sided” and “triangle” have. Extrapolation difficulty isn’t that. A circularity claim isn’t that, especially when it doesn’t hold up on its own terms. Calling something “meaningless” without producing the thing the triangle example required isn’t applying a test, it’s reusing a verdict the standard never actually delivered.

This isn’t a new objection; it’s the same one relocated. The complaint was that extrapolating a graded property to “everything” loses a clear referent; restating “knows everything” as “for every true proposition, this being knows it” still has that same universal quantifier sitting right there in “every.” But that’s already been answered, not dodged - “for every natural number, it’s either even or odd” quantifies over an infinite domain too, and nobody calls that referent-less for it. The predicate is determinate; it’s just not checkable by hand for every case, which is a fact about verification, not about meaning. Moving “knows” and “every” next to each other doesn’t bring the problem back. It’s the same answer already on the table, just being asked to clear the bar twice.

There’d be circularity here only if “logically possible” secretly meant “able to be done” - then the whole definition would collapse into “can do whatever can be done,” which really would be circular, just restating the term being defined. But that’s not what “logically possible” means. It’s a property of the description itself: whether it’s internally consistent, checkable by logic alone, with nothing about anyone’s abilities built into it. “A man who is a bachelor and married” fails that test regardless of anyone’s power. “A man who runs a four-minute mile” passes it regardless of whether any specific person actually can. The ability question - can this being bring it about - only gets asked after that separate, independent check is already settled. Two different questions, answered two different ways. That’s not the loop circularity requires.

Fair objection to divine command theory specifically but the definition on the table never invoked divine command theory. “Tracking whatever the true moral facts are” was deliberately left open to any first-order ethical theory, including ones that don’t define goodness in terms of what God wants at all. That’s not an accident, either, plenty of serious theological traditions reject pure divine command theory for exactly this reason, grounding goodness in something prior to and independent of divine will specifically to dodge the circularity being described. Pointing at “what God wants” doesn’t touch a definition that was never built that way.

θεῖος really is Homeric, that part’s right. But it’s not the same word as θειότης, and it’s not used the same way - θεῖος is a broad, common adjective applied across the whole span of Greek literature, and not only to gods: it gets used for excellent speeches, remarkable people, anything striking enough to earn “marvelous” or “godlike” as a compliment. One standard lexicon entry even describes it as used “without reference to any individual deity” - a loose, general flavor of “wondrous,” not a formal test administered to sort gods from non-gods. θειότης is a much later, much narrower abstract noun built on that root. Sharing an etymological root doesn’t make two words interchangeable any more than “divine” and “divinity” do the identical job in English. “Same-same” papers over exactly the distinction the original claim needed to hold up.

That move usually works by stretching a contested label to cover ground it wasn’t built for - redefining “atheist” until it swallows positions that don’t fit. That’s not what’s happening here, though. Nothing about labels is in play. The claim is narrower: having no opinion on whether something exists guarantees you are without the belief that it exists. That’s a one-way street - someone could lack the belief while holding the opposite opinion instead, that it doesn’t exist but the direction that’s actually needed here holds regardless. No opinion is enough on its own to settle that the belief isn’t present. Calling that “the same move” doesn’t show it’s the same move, it just assumes the resemblance instead of pointing at what’s actually being stretched.

No disagreement here, actually. Nothing said claimed you could never come to hold the belief, only that you don’t hold it now. “Might believe it later if the definition improves” and “doesn’t currently believe it” aren’t in tension. This isn’t a rebuttal to anything on the table; it’s agreement with it.

One more thing worth raising, from the exchange with SenorBeef: “nontheist” got introduced as the term for beings that can’t really hold the concept at all - rocks, a child with no exposure to the idea, an alien with no concept of god. Whatever that category is for, it isn’t you. You’ve spent this entire thread engaging fluently with θειότης, Anselm, Spinoza, omnipotence, and circularity objections. Whatever “nontheist” rescues, it doesn’t rescue someone demonstrably capable of holding the concept and reasoning about it at length.

Last thing: a fair amount from the last post went untouched. The triangle/Voyager exchange and the challenge that came out of it -show the same kind of contradiction for ‘knows everything’ that the four-sided triangle has - never got picked back up, which is worth noting since that’s the exact standard being applied throughout this reply. The self-identification paragraph and the Zeus/Spinoza distinction tied to your own 2021 ‘God, not a god’ line are still open too. Worth circling back to all three whenever you’re ready.

I’ve been careful to specify a hypothetical ignotheist who says this or that with some care, so I don’t think this criticism applies. Ignotheism logically trends towards atheism and that might be underselling it because it would be hard to conceive of a person who thinks the question of theism is meaningless but still chooses to be theistic anyway.

Are rocks subscribers to any school of thought or any descriptions of their belief systems?

What does “a-” mean when applied to an English word, such as typical to atypical? Given that atheism usually gets about a billion times more usage in popular society than “nontheist”, it’s obviously a non-starter to try to get people to switch words especially when the original one plainly means what I’m saying it means. It may also mean what other people say it means in a descriptivist sense, but there’s no reason that atheists should have to defer and surrender the word to religious people who want to mischaracterize their views. Giving up the fight for an honest usage of the word “atheist” to retreat to a niche word that some dude on a message board prefers is kind of a non-starter. You also haven’t actually said why non-theist is superior to atheist (I think they’re the same), only that you prefer the term, presumably because if you separate “non-theist” into what atheist plainly means, you can load the idea of “atheist” with whatever baggage you want.

So I get what you’re getting at, and I agree there’s a small discussion to be had here, but I think it’s a separate discussion than we’re currently having. This isn’t really the area where anyone is currently disagreeing in the current discussion and I think we’d be opening a separate discussion to start discussing this. I think we can reasonably say that we can discuss what theism is without finding the exact edge cases.

How is a deistic god incoherent? Thinking you have evidence of such a god is. Thinking the god cares about your sex life is. Its potential existence is not.
Now, I’m not arguing that there is the first bit of a reason to believe in such a god. There isn’t, but definition. But that doesn’t make it incoherent.
We can talk about things happening beyond the event horizon. We can never have evidence of this, but the discussion, for instance saying it makes sense that the laws of nature don’t change, is not incoherent.

Genetically advantaged, not defective.

And yes, there’s evidence that religiosity has a significant genetic component; something between a third to half of the likelihood of someone being religious.

What makes more sense to me is a near-universally-human desire to understand the workings of the universe. Mysticism and religions are the primitive mechanisms made up by humans because they didn’t at first have the mental tools for much actual science. Another near-universal trait is a desire for a feeling of safety and comfort. Science isn’t much help there, and I think that is why religion has persisted. Facing the cold universe without a super-parent to protect you is a daunting prospect.

That’s a good point. Before the concept of atmospheric static electrical charge was discovered, lightning was a frightening and capricious event, and making up a god to explain the phenomenon was a natural tendency.

One analogy is the UFO religion; people see fuzzy blobs of light in the distance, and make up a belief system that involves extraterrestrial entities (or worse extradimensional entities) in aerial craft. This is just an inevitable consequence of insufficient data. Gods are in the same Low Information Zone as flying saucers.

Trying to flesh out the data in the Low Information Zone is a natural and necessary human trait; if the jungle is dark, there might be tigers or snakes in there. At night the human brain populates dark corners with predators and murderers in response to every unexpected noise. This isn’t a religious instinct, it is a preservation instinct. Just perfectly normal paranoia, everyone in the universe has that.

And as a response to the question posed in the OP; just because something is in the Low Information Zone that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Sometimes there really are tigers and murderers in the shadows.

But the existence of one low-information phenomenon does not mean the others all exist, too. God or gods might exist but UFO aliens don’t; UFO aliens might exist but gods don’t; ghosts might exist but God doesn’t, and so on.

That’s part of it; but the sense of sacredness is IME something else. And I agree that not everyone has it. — it doesn’t necessarily require a belief in God. It’s entirely possible to think, for instance, that a particular mountain is sacred, without thinking either that it’s a god or that some god made it sacred. But that can be very hard to explain to somebody who hasn’t got the sense; and to some who do have it but think it all comes from their version of God.

It’s very common among humans; but it doesn’t make you not human to not have it. Humans vary a lot. I have the sense of sacredness, but I don’t have whatever it is about humans and ball games. I can see that most humans have it, that it’s important to them and to at least most human cultures including widely varying cultures; it’s clearly One Of the Things That Humans Do; but recognizing its existence isn’t the same thing as understanding it.

I think that’s the position of most posters in this thread. It’s certainly my position if you read my posts. Knowing someone is an atheist only tells you one thing about them – they don’t believe in God or gods. Knowing someone doesn’t collect stamps only tells you one thing about them – they don’t collect stamps. There’s nothing else that non-stamp-collectors, sorry, I mean atheists, have in common.

I think it less understanding the universe than trying to find meaning in the universe. I’ve read interviews with desists who were quite scientifically knowledgeable where they said they believed in a deistic god mostly because it seemed to them that the universe must have a purpose. Martin Gardner was a deist, but I don’t know if this was his reason.
I’m personally fine with the universe not having a purpose, but I think I’m in the minority.

I’m the same, and I never understood the need for some people for the universe to have a purpose. Look around yourself and society, and nature, there are so many absurdities and randomness to cure anyone from this belief.

Even if atheism is defined only as lacking belief in gods, but that does not mean it tells us nothing else. If someone rejects the gods of Chinese folk religion, it is also reasonable to infer that they reject related beliefs such as ancestor spirits and gods receiving offerings, ghosts interacting with the living, spirit-medium communication, and rituals that influence supernatural beings. Will an atheist pray to a Catholic saint to intercede with God on the atheist’s behalf? Logically, atheism precludes belief that a saint will intercede with God. Do you expect an atheist to still believe saints exist, can hear prayers, and can influence events? Will an atheist burn joss paper so that an ancestor spirit will intercede with the gods in the Court of Heaven on the atheist’s behalf? Logically, atheism precludes belief that spirits intercede with gods in the Court of Heaven. Do you expect an athiest to still believe ancestor spirits exist, can receive offerings, and can influence events? Consider belief in the non-material aspects of circumcision and baptism. Some beliefs must necessarily be rejected if one rejects God or gods, and it is reasonable to assume rejection of at least some downstream beliefs.

~Max