# Are atrocities commited against your own people enough to use force?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 2, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072 "2003-04-02T23:08:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/1 "2003-04-02T23:08:48Z")
Lets say that Hitler just killed the Jews, The Serbs were just killing the Croats, and Saddam was just killing his own people.
Is this enough by itself to justify using force to remove them from power and free the oppressed people?
If a guy was beating up a girl to a point where she is bloody and aproaching death and you could easily take out this guy, should you? If the girl is innocent? And the guy is known for this behavior? How does this differ when it comes to nations?
I’ve heard arguments about the war against Iraq saying no blood for oil, no WMD have been found and the like (I’ve heard the other side too), but if it is enough to use force to end the attrocities then I can’t see how any other anti-war statment can be considered.
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### Author:  [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/2 "2003-04-02T23:17:59Z")
It depends what you mean by “justified” - as in, morally acceptable, or fulfilling the proper job of a government? It seems to me that it would be acceptable to use force to stop atrocities in other countries, as this is the moral equivalent of killing somebody attempting to murder a third party (of course, if you add in the question of civilian casualties, it becomes a more complicated problem). That does not mean that a government has an obligation to intervene to stop atrocities, as that may not be in the bests interests of its citizens. However, in this case the offense is against the government’s citizens, and not those against whom force is used.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/3 "2003-04-02T23:27:33Z")
It also gets complicated when the atrocities are claimed to be part of internal struggle. As a wild hypothetical let’s say that rather than killing his own people Saddam claims he was attacking a village under Kurdish rebel control. So are we going in to stop atrocities or take sides in a civil war?
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### Author:  [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/4 "2003-04-02T23:29:26Z")
If this “guy beating a girl”-story is supposed to be an analogy for the iraq-war, it’s pretty god-damn simplistic.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/5 "2003-04-03T00:02:16Z")
The problem with the analogy is that there are also a lot of other guys standing around who habitually do nothing. But, when your back is turned, they screw the girl. Then there is our friend, let’s call him “Tony,” who always helps us with these wife beating types. We should see what he thinks we should do…
Anyway, the analogy is a little strained. I’ll work on a serious answer, sorry.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/6 "2003-04-03T04:36:11Z")
The problem is when the next guy starts beating his wife, the wife will expect us to come to their aid as well. But what happens if we need that wifebeaters help against an even bigger wifebeater? Do we say, sorry lady? We need your husband to help us go kick some other guys ass?
I think that’s what people have a problem with. While it’s great that Iraq will have a Sadaam free future, people generally expect justice to be doled out in a consistant manner. To quote from “Three Kings” (the greatest of the three Desert Storm movies made), “lots of people are in trouble but you don’t fight no fucking wars for them”.
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### Author:  [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/7 "2003-04-03T06:47:30Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by msmith537 \*
> **"Three Kings" (the greatest of the three Desert Storm movies made)**
[hijack]
I know one of the others ones was _Courage Under Fire_ (pretty good, but not particularly memorable). Which was the third? _Live from Baghdad_?
[/hijack]
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### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/8 "2003-04-03T07:14:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by kanicbird \*
> \*\*
> If a guy was beating up a girl to a point where she is bloody and aproaching death and you could easily take out this guy, should you? If the girl is innocent? And the guy is known for this behavior? How does this differ when it comes to nations?
> \*\*
Does the fact that the girl is pretty (or not) play a role in this equation? After all, look at Rwanda (no oil) – we did not care to save her and make her ours. But when it comes to the atrocities of Saddam in Iraq (oil rich) – we care, and we are going to save her and make her ours.
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### Author:  [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/9 "2003-04-03T08:01:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Anyway, the analogy is a little strained. I’ll work on a serious answer, sorry.
So what have we got here guys? A collective work of fiction on gang rape?
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### Author:  [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/10 "2003-04-03T10:15:02Z")
**"and you could easily take out this guy, should you?"**
Yes, but only if you “could easily take him out”. All the tough jobs with no rewards are best selectively ignored.
I rather think you should call the police. Seeing someone who beat his wife over a decade ago and then calling the police to say “hey, there is a bad guy, I am going to beat him up, ok? But you know, no matter what you say, I am going to do it anyway, ha ha ha” is definitely the wrong solution to this problem.
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/11 "2003-04-03T13:38:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> After all, look at Rwanda (no oil) – we did not care to save her and make her ours.
Rwanda also had no sea ports, making supply difficult. Logistics is a huge problem. Kofi Anan lying in front of the UN made some serious problems in getting any public support in America, and this was at a time when Americans didn’t want to send forces abroad (after Somolia). There was also some serious concern over whether or not we could do anything to help. Everything was against going to Rwanda, except our humanity. Sadly, brotherly love is wonderful, but not terribly practical.
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### Author:  [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/12 "2003-04-03T13:43:27Z")
**bandit:**
Shall we construe this to mean that the Humanitarian Intervention came to be in Iraq because it was _logistically suitable_?
My honour, I withdraw the question. 😉
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/13 "2003-04-03T13:44:39Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Does the fact that the girl is pretty (or not) play a role in this equation? After all, look at Rwanda (no oil) –
I didn’t think Bosnia was oil rich either.
> [@](#):
>
> Yes, but only if you “could easily take him out”. All the tough jobs with no rewards are best selectively ignored.
This is why in my analogy I stated ‘easily’, perhaps I should have stated easily AND not having a net negative effect on you (or the country).
> [@](#):
>
> of course, if you add in the question of civilian casualties, it becomes a more complicated problem
This is an added complication which is another moral/ethical problem, are civilian casualties accpable when freeing people from a murderous government.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/14 "2003-04-03T13:58:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Does the fact that the girl is pretty (or not) play a role in this equation? After all, look at Rwanda (no oil) –
If this is done for a pretty girl does it make it wrong? When should someone be obligated to help someone else?
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [April 3, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-atrocities-commited-against-your-own-people-enough-to-use-force/166072/15 "2003-04-03T14:49:07Z")
To me it justifies corrective action by the larger community. Internal abuse in a country is much like domestic violence. It’s wrong.
Hitler directed most of his internal atrocities against the Jews, based on the fallacious premise that they weren’t really German, or part of the German community. Not to disregard what he did to the Jewish people, we unwittingly go along with that that fallacy when we emphasize the fact that his targets were Jews, and forget that they were also citizens and residents of Germany.
This wasn’t another nation he was attacking, it was his own people. Our intervention was justified then and it is justified now.