# Are Austrians still considered to be Germans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062 "2012-05-06T13:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/21 "2012-05-06T17:01:16Z")
Another analogy might be Serbs and Croats. Same language, but different religions. Austria has historically been a majority Catholic region while Germany is minority Catholic (since the reformation, that is). Religion goes a long way in defining ethnicity, or at least it used to. And we hoo-mans are endless splitters. We look for differences, and find them whether they are there or not. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/22 "2012-05-06T17:41:48Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > I’m not sure, but they still don’t have any kangaroos. [Oh, yeah?](http://www.flickr.com/photos/47804322@N00/41114103/) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/23 "2012-05-06T17:59:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > [Oh, yeah?](http://www.flickr.com/photos/47804322@N00/41114103/) 😃 Well I’ll be damned. The next thing you know, they’ll be throwin’ some shrimp on the barbie! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/24 "2012-05-06T18:35:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The next thing you know, they’ll be throwin’ some shrimp on the barbie! They probably do on Fridays, being Catholic and all. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/25 "2012-05-06T18:37:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well I’ll be damned. The next thing you know, they’ll be throwin’ some shrimp on the barbie! Those are wallabies, not kangaroos. They come from Wallachia. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/26 "2012-05-06T18:47:41Z")
As for the OP, I’m surprised **GermanicPride** would even want to include Austrians under the Germanic big tent, considering how they want their own country. I wouldn’t want such splitters included with me, a full-blooded German. Okay, half-blooded. But the rest of my ancestors came from Norway and Bohemia, both countries conquered by the Germans\*, and Ireland, a country that remained neutral in WWII. - Modified in the edit because I first used “Nazi” but realized that was a weasel word that many people use to distance the German people from the Nazi Party, for which most of them worked or even fought. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/27 "2012-05-06T19:14:26Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I guess a good analogy is the relationship between Canada (the English speaking part) and the United States. Canadians for the most part do not consider themselves Americans (American meaning: USA) at all, they probably outright reject that idea. > > However, Americans and Canadians share the same language and have very much in common in every aspect of life. I think this about sums it up. The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Luxembourg, much of Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Alsace, etc. aren’t part of the _nation_ of Germany today, even though they were once part of the _geographical region_ of Germany and even the loose medieval notion of Germany as a constituent unit of the HRE ( the terms “Kingdom of Germany” and “King of Germans” were bandied about, but generally as a quasi-synonym for the HRE ). That this is so is down to a series of historical accidents and political gyrations, but that’s a pretty much universal experience. That the majority of Swiss speak German dialects and live in what was once part of the German [stem duchy of Swabia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Swabia), doesn’t make them any less Swiss or any more German. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/28 "2012-05-06T19:19:07Z")
I think any hope of Austrians self-identifying as German ended with the Anschluss. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/29 "2012-05-06T19:50:31Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > (Which reminds me of a joke that I heard once: What makes the Austrians the smartest people in the world? They managed to convince the world that Hitler was German and that **Beethoven was Austrian**. 😉 ) …even sneakier, they’ve erroneously led us to believe [Mozart](http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/11/opinion/l-letter-on-mozart-a-german-not-austrian-composer-878092.html)was Austrian, too. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/30 "2012-05-06T20:01:56Z")
I have always heard that if tourists want to experience the ‘real’ Germany, they should go to Austria. Austrians supposedly do the whole German thing better than Germans these days. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/31 "2012-05-06T20:15:07Z")
“King of the Germans” _was_ a historic title with varying degrees of significance. In Carolingian times, it was a real monarchy. In the early years of the Ottonian-Hohenstaufen HRE, it was significant as a suzerain sort of overloprdship – and was distinguished from the Kings of the Lombards/Italy and of Bohemia. Later, it came to be a secondary title of the Emperor or of his heir apparent – which one held it varied with time – and was consolidated into the Habsburg titles. As Italy and Switzerland fell out of the Empire, there were therefore only two kings within it – and after 1648 they were both the same man, the habsburg Emperor. (This by the way is why the various Grand Dukes and Electors snagged Kingly titles outside the Empire – Xaxony for a while holding Poland, Brandenburg taking Prussia, Hannover by coincidence inheriting Great Britain, etc. – you were king of a nation, and Germany, fragmented as it was, was conceptually one nation. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/32 "2012-05-07T00:44:39Z")
Here’s a clue for the OP, free of charge: Did you ever think the Austrians don’t WANT to be associated with the Germans, for some pretty obvious reasons if you think about it? That German history in the first half of the 20th century was nothing to be proud of? Okay, Austria made some oopsies of their own, but there is no point in taking ownership of the other stuff, too. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/33 "2012-05-07T01:56:40Z")
Isn’t Arnold Schwarzenegger Austrian? I always thought of him as a German. \ They can call themselves whatever they want, but their German heritage is pretty hard to deny. Any peoples are free to go in a different direction if they want. I gather from this thread Austrians are… Austrians and nothing else then. ---
**Author:** ![GermanicPride](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7bcc69/32.png) [@GermanicPride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GermanicPride)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/34 "2012-05-07T01:58:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > This. Why should anyone bother reading your half plagiarized posts when you make statements as completely wrong as the one this is in reply to? How exactly was Austria part of Germany in 1866 when Germany didn’t exist until 1871? “Germany” did exist before 1871 just not as a nation-state, the German Empire which made the unification was forwarded by Prussia instead of Austria - so if history had turned out differently Austria would have unified Germany and not Prussia, so are you then saying Prussians would have stopped being Germans? If Bavaria separated now from Germany would Bavarians stop being Germans? Many Bavarians consider themselves different and Bavarian first, German second. Many cities and towns have switched from Bavarian to Austrian rule, Hitler’s birthplace is a prime example or Mozart’s which I said in my first post so if you was born under Bavarian rule, and so was your child, but then it switched to Austrian rule and their child was born under Austrian rule would that mean they would not be German in your eyes? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no single definition of “ethnicity”. However, it’s hard to argue against self-identity, and if Austrians don’t self identify as Germans, then they’re not. There is a definition of ethnicity and a German-speaking Austrian is by definition an ethnic German. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Do they still speak Austrian in Austria? The official language of Austria is German. > [@dropzone](#): > > As for the OP, I’m surprised **GermanicPride** would even want to include Austrians under the Germanic big tent, considering how they want their own country. I wouldn’t want such splitters included with me, a full-blooded German. > > Okay, half-blooded. But the rest of my ancestors came from Norway and Bohemia, both countries conquered by the Germans\*, and Ireland, a country that remained neutral in WWII. > > - Modified in the edit because I first used “Nazi” but realized that was a weasel word that many people use to distance the German people from the Nazi Party, for which most of them worked or even fought. But if history had turned out differently the Austrians would have unified Germany and nobody would be questioning whether they are Germans or not, being conquered is totally different to having historical settlement of Germans. Austria was the most dominant German state for centuries. > [@Chronos](#): > > I think any hope of Austrians self-identifying as German ended with the Anschluss. I think you mean since World War II as the Anschluss was voted and welcomed by the Austrians. > [@dropzone](#): > > Here’s a clue for the OP, free of charge: Did you ever think the Austrians don’t WANT to be associated with the Germans, for some pretty obvious reasons if you think about it? That German history in the first half of the 20th century was nothing to be proud of? Okay, Austria made some oopsies of their own, but there is no point in taking ownership of the other stuff, too. How can you deny your heritage? They are ethnically German, stop confusing citizenship with ethnicity. What happened in the early 20th century is up to a person whether their want to be or not, that is a flawed argument. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/35 "2012-05-07T02:07:08Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > …I think you mean since World War II as the Anschluss was voted and welcomed by the Austrians… Yes, it was. And in a free & fair election too. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/36 "2012-05-07T02:09:55Z")
Since the OP is more interested in debating than in simply asking for factual information, let’s move this over to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/37 "2012-05-07T02:11:49Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > There is a definition of ethnicity What is it, and what is your source? Ethnicities often are centered around language-- except when they’re not. Note my example of Serbs and Croats. > [@](#): > > The official language of Austria is German. And I’m an American. Our language is English, but that does make me ethnically English. The idea is absurd, even though I do have some ancestors from England, I have many more who weren’t. > [@](#): > > But if history had turned out differently the Austrians would have unified Germany and nobody would be questioning whether they are Germans or not Yeah, if pigs had wings they could fly. But they don’t, and history didn’t turn out differently. If history had turned out differently, the Irish would be English and the Italians would be Greeks. And maybe the Germans would be Slavs. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/38 "2012-05-07T03:10:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And maybe the Germans would be Slavs. Oooh! That’s fighting dirty, given our new friend’s appreciation of Mr Hitler’s finer qualities and his dislike of the slanders said against him. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15037620&postcount=15](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15037620&postcount=15) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/39 "2012-05-07T03:40:50Z")
The funny thing is, Austrians could be ethnic Germans. Or not. It’s just a silly, arbitrary classification that either could go this way or that. It really makes no difference, and the fact is we have two separate countries now, Germany and Austria, and there is no reason to think they would want to unify voluntarily. They are both part of the EU, with the same currency, and anyone from either country can move across the border and work and establish residency. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/40 "2012-05-07T04:03:04Z")
Deleted a joke that was not appropriate for GD. I will wait until our host’s inevitable Pitting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062.md?page=3)