# Are Austrians still considered to be Germans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062 "2012-05-06T13:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/101 "2012-05-08T03:22:00Z")
Within my lifetime, the consensus surrounding “ethnicity” of people in my generation who share my background has veered among “Bengali,”“Indian,” “Asian Indian,” “South Asian,” “Asian,” “Bengali-American,” “Indian-American,” “Asian American,” “Asian or Pacific Islander,” and “South Asian American.” I wouldn’t be surprised to encounter least once more mutation in my lifetime. What does that tell you about the mutability of ethnicity? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/102 "2012-05-08T04:25:17Z")
Do they have blond hair and blue eyes like all good ethnically pure Germans? Germanicpride is silly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/103 "2012-05-08T04:28:06Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > Hitler does get a lot of unnecessary bashing - he is one of the most understood individuals who has ever lived. No bashing of Hitler is unnecessary. He started a horrible war that left tens of millions dead and he presided over an attempt to utterly destroy more than one entire people. That there are occasional errors published regarding Hitler is probably true, but any bashing done in error is more than compensated for the way that he has escaped other deserved bashings. > [@GermanicPride](#): > > “Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived… he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.” > > - John F. Kennedy, > President of the > United States of America If you are going to select quotes from Holocaust deniers, (which is what the Institute for Historical Review was established to do), then you would be better served to track down the full quotation that is not truncated: > [@](#): > > \*\*After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years \*\*Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. \*\*He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but \*\*he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made. _Written by John F. Kennedy Special Correspondent for the Hearst Newspapers after a visit to Berchtesgaten_ ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/104 "2012-05-08T05:15:32Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Similarly descendents of Englishmen and those largely assimilated as “Anglos” here, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia etc. are of the English ethnicity. I know a great many Canadians who speak English, but I don’t actually know very many Canadians who are ethnically English. Canadians who can identifiably trace most or all of their roots to England are the distinct minority. You’ve got Scots, Irish, German, Italian, Portuguese, Greek, Indian, Russian, Pole, Ukranian, and God knows what else. I think it obvious that speaking English does not make one ethnically English or even make it very likely, as English is too much of a global language for that to be the case anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/105 "2012-05-08T05:21:38Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Do they have blond hair and blue eyes like all good ethnically pure Germans? And on that note, I’m a non-blond, non-blue-eyed person with some Austro-Hungarian ancestry myself. The OP might be defining me as part ethnically German, and I am not sure that’s what people who think like the OP are after. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/106 "2012-05-08T05:22:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I know a great many Canadians who speak English, but I don’t actually know very many Canadians who are ethnically English. Canadians who can identifiably trace most or all of their roots to England are the distinct minority. You’ve got Scots, Irish, German, Italian, Portuguese, Greek, Indian, Russian, Pole, Ukranian, and God knows what else. > > I think it obvious that speaking English does not make one ethnically English or even make it very likely, as English is too much of a global language for that to be the case anymore. Especially if you’ve never even been close to England. Then, there’s the whole monarchy thing. Maybe not so much a big deal for Canadians, but a big deal for Americans. We may be fascinated by English Royalty, but we are not subjects. Like I said earlier, the idea that I’m ethnically English is laughable on the face of it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/107 "2012-05-08T05:25:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Within my lifetime, the consensus surrounding “ethnicity” of people in my generation who share my background has veered among “Bengali,”“Indian,” “Asian Indian,” “South Asian,” “Asian,” “Bengali-American,” “Indian-American,” “Asian American,” “Asian or Pacific Islander,” and “South Asian American.” You’re just showing off now, aren’t you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/108 "2012-05-08T05:37:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And on that note, I’m a non-blond, non-blue-eyed person with some Austro-Hungarian ancestry myself. The OP might be defining me as part ethnically German, and I am not sure that’s what people who think like the OP are after. Yep and therein lies the rub, even some Slavic people can trace their roots back to early Germanic tribesmen. Ethnicity in Europe is a very tricky thing and the last bloke who tried to this got shot… ---
**Author:** ![GermanicPride](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7bcc69/32.png) [@GermanicPride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GermanicPride)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/109 "2012-05-08T06:56:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, actually, it’s not denial to say “only” 1.5 million were killed at Auschwitz. Auschwitz is notable for the industrial scale of its operation, a veritable factory of death, but the other 4-5 million murders of Jews were more localized, typically by Germans marching into a town and, with the aid of resident collaborators, herding the Jews into a nearby forested area or gully and shooting them. > > I don’t know what this means. I merely pointed out that your premise, true or not, is of debatable significance. I don’t see how it is seen as denying, I do agree the Holocaust happened just not till the extent of what is told, many things don’t add up, there is no traces of gas, many survivors have been exposed as frauds, the figures have been dropped incredibly and to top it all of if it’s such a historical fact why can nobody question it without being jailed? Why should you go to jail for denying a historical ‘fact’…you are not invited to open the package and just accept what is told…makes no sense at all, and no if you say the 4-5 million of other Jews then that would mean the original figure was 9 million it wasn’t it was 6 million and they lowered the number from 4 million (Auschwitz only) to 1.5 million so minus the 2.5 million you then only have 3.5 million altogether - and the funny thing is as well is that the original 6 million figure has been used prior to the Holocaust and it comes from the Soviets. > [@Pitchmeister](#): > > Even if I believe 1% of what I learned about the Holocaust, it still stands out as one of the most horrific events in all of human history. Don’t complain you’re being labelled a Holocaust denier, because you are. > > Aaaaand were done here. > > It is quite telling that googling this phrase gives you hits to [nowhiteguilt.com](http://nowhiteguilt.com) and [stormfront.com](http://stormfront.com) on the first page of results - I’m not going to be clicking these links, though. I shouldn’t be labelled a denier for something that is a fact, it was lowered. It wasn’t one of the worst at all, what about Stalin…Pol Pot…Jews to the Palestinians and so on and so on… The quote is used a lot even click the “book” section on Google… JFK did say that - many other people quoted Hitler as a good man, history is written by the winners. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Would you care to elaborate? Or indeed address any of the issues that I touched on? > > I am beginning to doubt that you are German yourself. I suspect that most Germans would be able to pull this kind of thing off with a little more semblance of rationality. I never said I was German myself, Germanic and German are two different things… Germans are Germanic but not all Germanic peoples are Germans, capiche? I said simply; of German ancestry, of the German people…it is not exclusive to the country Germany as we call it now. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > _Yeahhhh_… > > …well… > > …huh. > > I guess we are done here. …? :o > [@Pitchmeister](#): > > I most certainly hope not - we don’t want him! It’s probably some deluded White Power thing, and if Hitler was so awesome and German, wouldn’t you want to be German as well? > > Well, the ones that don’t even care, maybe, but I can’t speak too well about the mental capabilities of those that do… See how you’re now trying to be all funny and sarcastic…stay on the topic about Austrians being Germans not political affiliation or just Hitler. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > There was a poll conducted in Austria in 2008 (the 70th anniversary of the “Anschluss”) which asked whether people thought that Austria is a distinct nation. > > 82 % said yes, 7 % said no. > > When the same question was asked in 1956, the result was: > > 49 % yes, 47 % no > > (Source: The leading Austrian newspaper “Der Standard”: [derStandard.at](http://derstandard.at/3261105) ) I did say this, since the end of WW2 the Austrians have quite easily denied their German roots and deny their wanting for the Anschluss. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, there you go. The Austrians themselves think they’re distinct, and barring the emergence of some other authority to say otherwise, or to offer up a sufficiently generous definition of “distinct”, I guess that’s that. Ethnicity doesn’t change - do you understand what an ethnic group is? Austrians share a common ancestry with the Germans of Germany, same language, same culture (especially in Bavaria and other Southern Germany parts) etc etc. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > It is noteworthy, though, that this notion of an Austrian nation only evolved as time went by. The article points out that the official name of the country from 1918 until 1919 (i. e. immediately after WW I and the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian empire) was indeed “Deutschösterreich” (German Austria). > > Article 2 of the first constitution of Austria (in 1918) read: “German Austria is part of the German Republic”. > > At the time (after WW I and the collapse of the monarchies), there was a general feeling that “German Austria” should be part of a greater democratic German state. However, this was specifically prohibited by the treaties of Versailles and St. Germain. > > The rest is history. Exactly…why would a rump-state label itself that if they didn’t see themselves as Germans and want to be part of Germany? 😉 > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can someone explain why it matters whether Austrians are “ethnic Germans” or not? If we all agree that they are, what comes next? Anschluss 2.0? I think the only “schluss-ing” we’re going to see in that region is in the Alps during the winter. > > Really. Who fucking cares? Are the Walloons ethnically French? Are the Flemish ethnically Dutch? Are the Moldovans ethnically Rumanian? Are the Sicilians ethnically Italian? Are the Catalonians ethnically Spanish? Nobody mentions a second Anschluss, quit putting words in my mouth you moron. Do you have to swear to get your point across? I pity you. :smack: > [@Pitchmeister](#): > > **John Mace** , I believe you’re fighting the wrong person here - **Donnerwetter** never said anything about Anschluss 2.0 or how Austrians are really Germans, in fact, he provided the cite that apparently finally made our friend **GermanicPride** shut up. I work, I don’t sit on the computer all day… > [@Dissonance](#): > > I’ll just let these two gems of yours speak for themselves. Oh, and your comment in your other thread "All the other rubbish myths, rumours about him[Hitler]. > > Your claim of 4.5 million being lowered to 1.5 million is bullshit, and it is a [well known Holocaust denier gambit](http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/four-million-01.html). > > Over two weeks after the Germans did, and to carry out a secret partition agreed to with Germany before the German invasion. > > So if the Danzig Corridor was all he was interested in, why didn’t he just take that? Why was the German occupied half incorporated into the Greater German Reich? Considering Hitler’s history of breaking treaties, pacts, and agreements left and right, the broken record of ‘this being his last demand’ and what happened to Czechoslovakia, as well as everything he’d written in Mein Kampf and all of his speeches calling for lebensraum only an idiot would think he was only interested in a tiny part of Poland to redress Germany’s grievances. > > I think I’ll end on this quote of yours for your crocodile tears at being called out as a Holocaust denier: It’s not Holocaust denial at all - the people done this themselves at Auschwitz and the same as the gas chamber in Auschwitz is fake which is re-constructed, why shouldn’t you be allowed to have an open mind and decide for yourself the truth…without being automatically accused of being anti-Semitic and a Holocaust denier, these words are made up words… grow up. That part of Germany was unfairly given to the Poles after the end of WW1 he had every right to want it back, they wouldn’t let him - the innocent Germans were also getting massacred in Danzig, wouldn’t you want to protect your people? The living space for the German people was a Greater Germanic Reich and eventually into Eastern Europe yes but he did not want war with Britain or France, he was just as much cause to blame for WW2 than any other leader of that time. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ooooh, do we have a good Denier thread on our hands? > Shredding Creationist and Truther claims gets old. > > I’d suggest that the OP start a new thread titled “Hitler was misunderstood.” His central theory could be that, if Hitler won, then massive, systemic, factory-style genocide of 11 million human beings wasn’t evil. And it didn’t happen anyways, so there. So because I state a fact that the number was lowered I am now all of a sudden a denier…great! Hitler is misunderstood, he was a great leader and a good man. Stalin and the commies have caused more genocide than Hitler and National Socialism. Hitler didn’t even order the deaths of Jews… there is not one single document written or signed by Hitler ordering any deaths to Jews, prove me wrong. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Even more telling if you check the quote is the part of the quote that he omitted. I wonder why he didn’t want to include what was inbetween “figures who ever lived… he had a mystery.” I did… 😕 > [@Alessan](#): > > I feel sorry for Holocaust deniers. Here there was this thing that happened that as far as they’re concerned was a great thing, a \*terrific \*thing, and instead of singing its glories to the world, they have to bend over backward denying it even existed! It’s sad, kind of. How is it automatically Holocaust denial to state that the numbers in Auschwitz was lowered? How can you take away 2.5 million and still keep the overall 6 million figure? > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > What the hell, here’s the whole quote (from Wikiquotes). Omitted portion bolded and italicized: > > He’s posted in the thread, but then left again. I’ll take > > 1. Never has the guts to return > > If he did come back, I’d pick > > 1. May 12 2012 I have a job… I don’t sit on here constantly checking for replies, I will do in my own time like I am now. > [@Princhester](#): > > You call yourself “GermanicPride” and German-ness means so much to you that you start threads on message boards about it but you can’t actually say with any specificity what being German even means, can you? All you can do is point to vague concepts like “heritage” and “ethnicity”. I ask you to point to simple objective factors that would allow me to tell if someone was German. I even give you examples of the sort of factors you could reference. You can’t do it. The Germans are not exclusive to the country Germany, a German is someone is of German ethnicity and considers himself German, is a dog born in a stable a horse? Not all Germans look the same you know this, but as long as you are from an ethnic German family - you are German. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Yes, I personally consider Austrians (along with the Swiss and other ethnic Germans) to be part of the German _ethnicity_ and perhaps _nation_ although not the German _state_. At any rate, if Germany and Austria opted for Anschuluss 2.0, what would be the problem? The Anschluss of 1938 was only opposed by most Austrians because it would result in a takeover by the Nazis, up until after World War II, most Austrians wanted a Grossdeutschland with them in. > > Similarly descendents of Englishmen and those largely assimilated as “Anglos” here, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia etc. are of the English ethnicity. In 1938 the Anschluss wasn’t opposed by most Austrians, 99.73% of the Austrians voted for it. Even in 1918 the Republic of German-Austria (Republik Deutschösterreich) seen people voting to be part of Germany… it was just forbid. > [@Enginerd](#): > > That’s cultural. It doesn’t change my ethnicity a whit. Culture is a part of ethnicity. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Why? What is German ethnicity? What are the objective factors of determining (German) ethnicity? How is it different from nationhood, citizenship, residence, and linguistic groupings? > > And so what? > > Are you sure about that? What about African-Americans? What ethnicity are they? Being of German heritage is being of German ethnicity…is this some sort of windows licker question? Citizenship you can change…that is where you can rightfully be a citizen of that country. Residence…is where you can say. Linguistic is to do with ethnicity as well. > [@sisu](#): > > Do they have blond hair and blue eyes like all good ethnically pure Germans? > > Germanicpride is silly. You are silly for even saying that…been listening to too much anti-Nazi propaganda eh? Anyways, Hitler had blue eyes so 😉 Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/110 "2012-05-08T07:28:18Z")
**GermanicPride** , I’m not sure how you can keep up your argument after being presented with the facts. The Austrians themselves no longer consider themselves German, so they’re not. Maybe we share a language and a cultural history, but that doesn’t keep them from developing a distinct national identity, whatever that means. Your argument is ultimately circular - a German is someone of German ethnicity. A dog born in a stable is not a horse, no, but neither can a dog breed with horses. The same cannot be said about human “races” or ethnicities. I don’t think you could show _any_ overall genetic differences between German, French, Austrian or Czech people. Culture, which is the only other factor determining ethnicity, changes over time, and if the Austrians don’t consider themselves German, they’re not. Do you consider the descendants of the pilgrims in the US to be English? Are all Argentinians Spanish? I’m also baffled by your number games, how in the world is 1.5 million killed _in one facility_ not outrageously, comic-book-villain-like evil? Even if I were to believe Hitler never personally signed a piece of paper, do you seriously believe he didn’t know about what happened at Auschwitz and dozens of other facilities all over the country? And if he knew about it and didn’t stop it (I know, this argument sounds ridiculous, but I’m trying to go in your direction here), how does that not make him one of the most evil people that ever lived? Maybe you didn’t read the full Kennedy quote that was provided for your reading pleasure, including the snipped beginning, but I also don’t see how Kennedy is praising Hitler or calling him a good man. Can you provide one of the “many other” quotes that praise Hitler? I sure am curious. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/111 "2012-05-08T07:31:17Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > […]being anti-Semitic and a Holocaust denier Well, aside from the fact that you’re quite obviously a Holocaust Denier, care to elaborate on how anti-semitism is a “made up” word? Been quite some time since it was a neologism and it’s got a perfectly comprehensible definition. You might also want to take note, this is not our first rodeo. You are using [predictable](http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html), [tired](http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/denial-of-science.html), [worn](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-9.html), Holocaust Denier tactics. > [@GermanicPride](#): > > So because I state a fact that the number was lowered I am now all of a sudden a denier Yep. > [@](#): > > Holocaust deniers would have people believe that the Auschwitz State Museum’s death toll of four million was a widely accepted idea, and that any revisions in this number should also lower the total dead from the Holocaust. Deniers often claim that this revision is largely due to the efforts of “revisionist scholars”, and then use this as evidence that the stories of mass murder at Auschwitz are a hoax. > > Deniers also claim that anyone who dared to question the four million figure was “labeled an Anti-Semite, neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least).” By accusing their opponents of slander, deniers can simultaneously tarnish the reputations of real historians, and also invoke a “conspiracy” thatsuppresses “the truth.” Conspiracy theorizing is another common denier approach, and they use it to explain why their “startling facts” have been ignored for so long. Deniers almost always overstate the "Four Million Variant,"as they would like to portray Holocaust historians as a repressive, Jewish dominated cadre that rigidly enforces the “dogma” of four million dead at Auschwitz. > > As is often the case, our “revisionist scholars” have things more than a little askew. “The Four Million Variant” is the fallacious notion that a change in the Auschwitz Museum’s figure pokes a major hole in mainstream Holocaust history. Taking each aspect of the “Four Million Variant” individually shows just how wrongheaded this notion is: > > ``` > "The four million figure at Auschwitz was a widely held notion." > > ``` > > This is clearly false. In a quick survey of nineteen historical references (see appendix) only two listed the total Auschwitz dead at four million [7], [8] One of these, Friedman’s “This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp,” was published in 1946, well before morereliable estimates were available. Most list figures from 1 to 2.5 million, and they arrived at these figures in a variety of methods . > > Some quoted Kommandant Höss’s testimony (2.5 million) and others attempted to piece together how many people arrived at Auschwitz, minus any survivors, while still others used available pre- and post war census data. In fact, to find many sources that do list four million dead, one has to find books published behind the iron curtain (see appendix). > > Other authors derided the Tribunal’s four million figure as an absurd example of Soviet propaganda.[9],[10] For example, Gerald Reitlinger’s The Final Solution discussed the source of the State Museum’s figure and why he found it ludicrous > [@GermanicPride](#): > > Hitler is misunderstood, he was a great leader and a good man. Indeed, a genocidal, racist, warmongering lunatic who attempted to exterminate multiple groups of people. What’s not to love? Next some liberal bleeding heart is going to argue that Hitler’s rabid Conspiracy Theorizing in Mein Kampf illustrates some sort of psychological flaw, instead of realizing that reality is the original Rorschach and Adolph was just a wonderfully creative interpreter. But, you can hold Hitler up high. His brand of murderous insanity was not quite as lethal as Stalin’s brand of murderous insanity. Obviously, that makes it good. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/112 "2012-05-08T08:00:08Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > It’s not Holocaust denial at all - the people done this themselves at Auschwitz and the same as the gas chamber in Auschwitz is fake which is re-constructed, why shouldn’t you be allowed to have an open mind and decide for yourself the truth…without being automatically accused of being anti-Semitic and a Holocaust denier, these words are made up words… grow up. You may as well go back to Stormfront, nobody here is stupid enough to buy your load of horseshit. You are a holocaust denier. Your claim that the number of people murdered at Auschwitz was originally 4 million but reduced to 1.5 million is utter horseshit. Try reading the link I gave you, this claim is completely untrue but frequently spouted by holocaust deniers such as yourself. > [@](#): > > That part of Germany was unfairly given to the Poles after the end of WW1 he had every right to want it back, they wouldn’t let him - the innocent Germans were also getting massacred in Danzig, wouldn’t you want to protect your people? Utter horseshit, straight from the propaganda ministry of Herr Goebbels. > [@](#): > > The living space for the German people was a Greater Germanic Reich and eventually into Eastern Europe yes but he did not want war with Britain or France, he was just as much cause to blame for WW2 than any other leader of that time. Hang on a second, you\* just \*said Hitler only wanted the Danzig corridor. You do realize that there were already people living in Poland and Russia, right? How do you imagine the Nazis planned on making room in this Germanic lebensraum? Oh yeah, genocide, that bit you keep trying to deny. > [@](#): > > So because I state a fact that the number was lowered I am now all of a sudden a denier…great! > > Hitler is misunderstood, he was a great leader and a good man. No, you’re a holocaust denier because you are denying the holocaust. Tell you what? Why don’t you go to your beloved Germany and try spouting this bullshit. You do know what will happen to you, right? > [@](#): > > How is it automatically Holocaust denial to state that the numbers in Auschwitz was lowered? How can you take away 2.5 million and still keep the overall 6 million figure? Because this statement is patently false, yet thrown about by holocaust deniers such as yourself. [Here, take a look](http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-09.html). There is no missing 2.5 million. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/113 "2012-05-08T08:04:09Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > I don’t see how it is seen as denying, I do agree the Holocaust happened just not till the extent of what is told, many things don’t add up, there is no traces of gas, many survivors have been exposed as frauds, the figures have been dropped incredibly and to top it all of if it’s such a historical fact why can nobody question it without being jailed? Why should you go to jail for denying a historical ‘fact’…you are not invited to open the package and just accept what is told…makes no sense at all, and no if you say the 4-5 million of other Jews then that would mean the original figure was 9 million it wasn’t it was 6 million and they lowered the number from 4 million (Auschwitz only) to 1.5 million so minus the 2.5 million you then only have 3.5 million altogether - and the funny thing is as well is that the original 6 million figure has been used prior to the Holocaust and it comes from the Soviets. Debating the numbers with you is a waste of time because I have no reasonable expectation you’ll do so in an honest and consistent manner. To summarize: Approximate total Jewish death toll at the Auschwitz facilities: ~1.5 million Approximate total Jewish death toll of the systematic extermination effort collectively known as The Holocaust, including Auschwitz: ~5.5 - 6 million I’m not sure who originally put the Auschwitz total at 4 million (though Rudolf Hoess, the first Commandant of Auschwitz, seemed okay with an estimate of three million). I’m unclear on why this is important. And I remain unclear on why classifying Austrians as ethnically German is important. One can create a definition whereby they are, and a definition whereby they are not. ---
**Author:** ![GermanicPride](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7bcc69/32.png) [@GermanicPride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GermanicPride)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/114 "2012-05-08T08:39:33Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > **GermanicPride** , I’m not sure how you can keep up your argument after being presented with the facts. The Austrians themselves no longer consider themselves German, so they’re not. Maybe we share a language and a cultural history, but that doesn’t keep them from developing a distinct national identity, whatever that means. > > Your argument is ultimately circular - a German is someone of German ethnicity. A dog born in a stable is not a horse, no, but neither can a dog breed with horses. The same cannot be said about human “races” or ethnicities. I don’t think you could show _any_ overall genetic differences between German, French, Austrian or Czech people. Culture, which is the only other factor determining ethnicity, changes over time, and if the Austrians don’t consider themselves German, they’re not. Do you consider the descendants of the pilgrims in the US to be English? Are all Argentinians Spanish? > > I’m also baffled by your number games, how in the world is 1.5 million killed _in one facility_ not outrageously, comic-book-villain-like evil? Even if I were to believe Hitler never personally signed a piece of paper, do you seriously believe he didn’t know about what happened at Auschwitz and dozens of other facilities all over the country? And if he knew about it and didn’t stop it (I know, this argument sounds ridiculous, but I’m trying to go in your direction here), how does that not make him one of the most evil people that ever lived? > > Maybe you didn’t read the full Kennedy quote that was provided for your reading pleasure, including the snipped beginning, but I also don’t see how Kennedy is praising Hitler or calling him a good man. Can you provide one of the “many other” quotes that praise Hitler? I sure am curious. If I stopped considering myself a human would that stop me being human? You cannot change facts, ethnicity is your ancestry and Austrians are Germans that way, it seems to be the Austrians way of thinking the self-hating ones that “Hitler wasn’t Austrian, he was German” or the self-hating Germans (of Germany) “Hitler wasn’t German, he was Austrian” it makes me crack up. Yes a German is someone of ethnic German ancestry… well done! A dog born in a stable isn’t a horse is basically meaning don’t confuse someone’s nationality with someone’s ethnicity. Einstein wasn’t ethnically German…he was Jewish ethnically - but was a German born citizen - I said this earlier on. Sure, many people quote Hitler as a good man which he was; he wasn’t times man of the year for no reason. Secondly the number toll is very vital because the Jews always play the sympathy card and love to spam the “six million” figure constantly - which has been used several times before Hitler was even put into power in 1933. Auschwitz is not in Germany it is in Poland do you not mean German occupied areas? There is not one single document written or signed by him giving any orders to kill Jews so how can you hold him responsible besides being head of the Reich? Hitler didn’t even hate all Jews, his family’s doctor Eduard Bloch was Jewish and he gave him extra protection when Austria was annexed in 1938, he had over 150,000 serving for him in the army (Hitler’s Jewish soldiers), one of the “ideal Aryans” was shown for propaganda purposes was also part Jewish. He also let thousands emigrate over to Palestine in the Haavara Agreement. Have you also read up on the Madagascar Plan idea? There is lots of quotes by people to Hitler, this is one of my best ones; “I have never met a happier people than the Germans and Hitler is one of the greatest men. The old trust him; the young idolise him. It is the worship of a national hero who has saved his country.” You need to stop believing all the propaganda about him which is allied and war time propaganda totally, there is two versions of Hitler, you evidently are believing the made up created version. Zionist scumbags. And the Kennedy quote still shines a light to Hitler. "Gentlemen! - Never forget this: Your names will long be forgotten even before your bodies have rotted away in the earth. But the name Adolf Hitler will still be a light in the darkness. You cannot murder him by drowning his memory in your sick-buckets and you cannot strangle him with your filthy, ink-stained fingers. His name exists forever in hundreds of thousands of souls. You are far too insignificant to even touch him. He loved Germany, he fretted over Germany. When he fought for honour and respect he fought for German Honour, for respect for Germany and when there was nothing left, he gave his life for Germany. What have you given so far? Which one of you would give his life for Germany? The only things you care about are riches, power and never ending luxurious living. When you think of Germany, you think of indulging your senses without responsibility, without cares? Trust me on this: The Fuhrer’s utter unselfishness in word and deed alone guarantees his immortality. The fact that the bitter fight for Germany’s greatness wasn’t crowned by success, like for example Cromwell’s in Britain, has a lot to do with the mentality of the people involved. On the one hand the Englishman’s character is essentially unfair, ruled by jealousy, self-importance, and a lack of consideration. But he never forgets he is an Englishman, loyal to his people and to his crown. On the other hand, the German with his need for recognition is never first and foremost a German. Therefore it doesn’t matter to you, you insignificant beings, if you destroy the entire nation. Your only guiding thought will always be, me first - me second - me third. In your worthlessness you will never think of the welfare of the nation - and with that pitiful philosophy you wish to prevent the immortality of a giant? What I wrote down immediately after the war has been proven to be correct. That my convictions are true is evident even as late as 1957. Signed, Paula Hitler, Berchtesgaden , May, 1st. 1957 > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, aside from the fact that you’re quite obviously a Holocaust Denier, care to elaborate on how anti-semitism is a “made up” word? Been quite some time since it was a neologism and it’s got a perfectly comprehensible definition. You might also want to take note, this is not our first rodeo. You are using [predictable](http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html), [tired](http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/denial-of-science.html), [worn](http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-9.html), Holocaust Denier tactics. > > Yep. > > Indeed, a genocidal, racist, warmongering lunatic who attempted to exterminate multiple groups of people. What’s not to love? Next some liberal bleeding heart is going to argue that Hitler’s rabid Conspiracy Theorizing in Mein Kampf illustrates some sort of psychological flaw, instead of realizing that reality is the original Rorschach and Adolph was just a wonderfully creative interpreter. But, you can hold Hitler up high. His brand of murderous insanity was not quite as lethal as Stalin’s brand of murderous insanity. Obviously, that makes it good. I’ve read the link you moron it even says what I said… the numbers were changed, better still - do you have any evidence that the exact numbers were six million killed? Check your sources from where it came from… the Soviets - yeah real evidence! :dubious: Hitler is used as a punch bag in the media, history is written by the winners you cannot deny this - he cannot defend himself so the Zionists love to push propaganda about him around, he has been dead for decades now and still gets more media attention then some celebs out there because it’s easier to hate him than like him because of post-1945 the bullshit spread about him. Did Hitler kill anyone but himself? No, not even in WW1. > [@Dissonance](#): > > You may as well go back to Stormfront, nobody here is stupid enough to buy your load of horseshit. You are a holocaust denier. Your claim that the number of people murdered at Auschwitz was originally 4 million but reduced to 1.5 million is utter horseshit. Try reading the link I gave you, this claim is completely untrue but frequently spouted by holocaust deniers such as yourself. > > Utter horseshit, straight from the propaganda ministry of Herr Goebbels. > > Hang on a second, you\* just \*said Hitler only wanted the Danzig corridor. You do realize that there were already people living in Poland and Russia, right? How do you imagine the Nazis planned on making room in this Germanic lebensraum? Oh yeah, genocide, that bit you keep trying to deny. > > No, you’re a holocaust denier because you are denying the holocaust. Tell you what? Why don’t you go to your beloved Germany and try spouting this bullshit. You do know what will happen to you, right? > > Because this statement is patently false, yet thrown about by holocaust deniers such as yourself. [Here, take a look](http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-09.html). There is no missing 2.5 million. You clearly don’t like the truth and now are crying because I’m challenging you then tell me to go to Stormfront, nice logic there. I’m a Holocaust denier because I state the facts about the number changes? I’ve read your article it’s from a Jewish propaganda website, does it have any actual proof six million altogether died besides Soviet propaganda? More Germans died and more Jews died from natural diseases like Anne Frank one of the most famous “killed” in the Holocaust. How do you explain this - In a letter published in a January issue of The Stars and Stripes, a newspaper for US military service personnel, Simon Wiesenthal re-confirmed, in passing, that “there were no extermination camps on German soil” during the Second World War. He made the identical statement in a letter published in the April 1975 issue of the British periodical Books and Bookmen. Also here he is exposed as a [liar.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8179000/8179535.stm) It’s not propaganda neither, innocent Germans were killed in Danzig - is everything “propaganda” to you unless it comes from the victors and the Jews eh? You’re only saying go to Germany and say it because you know it’s illegal so please answer me this - Why is it illegal to deny the Holocaust if it’s a historical “fact” - yet you can deny 9/11 or the Armenian genocide for example? Jog on. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Debating the numbers with you is a waste of time because I have no reasonable expectation you’ll do so in an honest and consistent manner. > > To summarize: > > Approximate total Jewish death toll at the Auschwitz facilities: ~1.5 million > > Approximate total Jewish death toll of the systematic extermination effort collectively known as The Holocaust, including Auschwitz: ~5.5 - 6 million > > I’m not sure who originally put the Auschwitz total at 4 million (though Rudolf Hoess, the first Commandant of Auschwitz, seemed okay with an estimate of three million). I’m unclear on why this is important. > And I remain unclear on why classifying Austrians as ethnically German is important. One can create a definition whereby they are, and a definition whereby they are not. The truth is hate to those who hate the truth, people like you I have sympathy for to be fair, the numbers is an exaggerated myth with no evidence, in fact have any Jews even been tested and proven to have died from gassing? 🙂 Prove me wrong. No, Austrians are Germans - there is no definition where you can say they are not. Don’t confuse nationality/citizenship with ethnicity. Austrian Germans (98% of people in Austria) are just as German as a Bavarian German (Bavarians from Germany), capiche? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/115 "2012-05-08T09:03:17Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > I’ve read the link you moron it even says what I said Fiction. It states that the soviets put the total at 4 million and that was virtually immediately and widely discounted, and accurate assessments of roughly 1.1 - 1.5 million have been the standard. Of course, we could note how you’re using “Zionist” as code for “Jew”, but really, you’re a proud supporter of Adolph Hitler. Your linguistic gaming isn’t exactly going to stand out, mmm? > [@GermanicPride](#): > > I’m a Holocaust denier because I state the facts about the number changes? As proven, you did not state the facts, you distorted them and pretended that Soviet propaganda was scholarly consensus when in fact that actual scholarship on the subject gainsaid the Soviet claims rapidly and thoroughly. As for " Jewish propaganda", it’s a website dedicated to preserving the facts of the Holocaust against the lies of anti-Semites and Holocaust Deniers. Seems like a pretty good purpose. Of course, your argument is deeply and fundamentally deceptive, to the point where you claim that an imprisoned person who died of disease due to lack of proper care, nourishment, housing (etc) was not in fact killed by the Nazis. Additionally you pretend that the six million figure, which is about as accurate as we can get, is a “Soviet” figure. Anybody who knows anything about the Holocaust knows that claim is wildly false. In any case, what, exactly, does it matter if a web site is “Jewish”? Care to elaborate on the actions of the Jews and “Zionists”? > [@GermanicPride](#): > > How do you explain this - That the site you are using, IHR, are Holocaust Denying liars and frauds. [ > [@](#): > > Both answers are correct in themselves: Wiesenthal did indeed indicate in 1975 and in 1993 that there were no extermination camps in what is now Germany. Innocuous as the change seems, it does lead the reader to assume that the most recent statement is some kind of admission that the Holocaust was much more limited than has been maintained and that the truth is finally coming out. Statements like Wiesenthal’s are in fact the basis upon which deniers claim that their pressure is forcing the truth out of reluctant historians. > > The truth is that historians, and others like Wiesenthal, have attempted repeatedly over the years to dispel several myths about the Holocaust: the mass production of soap made from human fat is a good example. > […] > What is not given any recognition by the deniers is that the latest “admission” by Wiesenthal is exactly what respectable historians have been saying for the past 45 years, starting perhaps with the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History in 1950. This selectivity amounts to nothing less than lying by omission and innuendo. ]([How to Refute Holocaust Denial](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial1.html#qar03)) Ah well, we can continue this in the Pit shortly, I’m sure. This thread won’t stick around in GD for long. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/116 "2012-05-08T09:24:36Z")
> [@GermanicPride](#): > > So because I state a fact that the number was lowered I am now all of a sudden a denier…great! > > Hitler is misunderstood, he was a great leader and a good man. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, probably a duck. > [@GermanicPride](#): > > I have a job… I don’t sit on here constantly checking for replies, I will do in my own time like I am now. Damn. May 12, 2012 > [@GermanicPride](#): > > Not all Germans look the same you know this, but as long as you are from an ethnic German family - you are German. So lets say my father, Ernst, whose family has been in Magdeburg since at least 1631 marries a jewish woman from America, Rebecca Cohen, and they emigrate to Australia. What am I, ducky? Bonus points if you have the balls to say _Mischling_. > [@GermanicPride](#): > > Being of German heritage is being of German ethnicity…is this some sort of windows licker question? I’m sure this is some real idiom in your native language. > [@GermanicPride](#): > > Sure, many people quote Hitler as a good man which he was; he wasn’t times man of the year for no reason. He was Times Man of the Year because he was a good liar. > [@GermanicPride](#): > > Zionist scumbags. Oops. Mask fell off. Also, reported ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/117 "2012-05-08T09:30:13Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I’m sure this is some real idiom in your native language. Window-licker is American slang. It essentially means “retard”. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/118 "2012-05-08T09:59:50Z")
Does this forum even have a moderator anymore? Why in the world should we still be playing “pile on the Nazi” for a week? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/119 "2012-05-08T10:02:16Z")
Having repugnant views is not against the SDMB rules, and the really egregious Nazi bullshit came in the last 24 hours or so. I’m reasonably certain that we’ll end up in the Pit shortly. ---
**Author:** ![GermanicPride](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7bcc69/32.png) [@GermanicPride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GermanicPride)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062/120 "2012-05-08T10:08:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fiction. It states that the soviets put the total at 4 million and that was virtually immediately and widely discounted, and accurate assessments of roughly 1.1 - 1.5 million have been the standard. > Of course, we could note how you’re using “Zionist” as code for “Jew”, but really, you’re a proud supporter of Adolph Hitler. Your linguistic gaming isn’t exactly going to stand out, mmm? > > As proven, you did not state the facts, you distorted them and pretended that Soviet propaganda was scholarly consensus when in fact that actual scholarship on the subject gainsaid the Soviet claims rapidly and thoroughly. As for " Jewish propaganda", it’s a website dedicated to preserving the facts of the Holocaust against the lies of anti-Semites and Holocaust Deniers. Seems like a pretty good purpose. Of course, your argument is deeply and fundamentally deceptive, to the point where you claim that an imprisoned person who died of disease due to lack of proper care, nourishment, housing (etc) was not in fact killed by the Nazis. Additionally you pretend that the six million figure, which is about as accurate as we can get, is a “Soviet” figure. Anybody who knows anything about the Holocaust knows that claim is wildly false. > > In any case, what, exactly, does it matter if a web site is “Jewish”? Care to elaborate on the actions of the Jews and “Zionists”? > > That the site you are using, IHR, are Holocaust Denying liars and frauds. > > [url=[How to Refute Holocaust Denial](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial1.html#qar03)] > > Ah well, we can continue this in the Pit shortly, I’m sure. This thread won’t stick around in GD for long. I’ve not changed anything these people did it themselves it is Soviet propaganda, nothing more, nothing less. There is no real evidence that it was six million, google “six million myth” you will see what I mean; this figure has been used several times by the vermin. If a website is Jewish it will obviously be propaganda about the alleged Holocaust crimes, I don’t deny it didn’t happen but the methods and what is told is not all true, in fact the word “Holocaust” and “genocide” are both created after 1945 and from the Jews. > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, probably a duck. > > Damn. May 12, 2012 > > So lets say my father, Ernst, whose family has been in Magdeburg since at least 1631 marries a jewish woman from America, Rebecca Cohen, and they emigrate to Australia. > > What am I, ducky? Bonus points if you have the balls to say _Mischling_. > > I’m sure this is some real idiom in your native language. > > He was Times Man of the Year because he was a good liar. > > Oops. Mask fell off. Also, reported > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Window-licker is American slang. It essentially means “retard”. Key word is “probably” - you moron. Yes you’re a Mischling, why do I have to have balls to say that… you mutt. No it means you’re a retard. He was times man of the year because he was a liar…yes that makes sense! :smack: Grow up you’re just upset. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-austrians-still-considered-to-be-germans/621062.md?page=7)