# Are Baretta and Luger hand-guns the same thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 12, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474 "2018-08-12T15:45:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/41 "2018-08-14T22:01:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But here, the deceased didn’t have a belt and holster. He had it tucked into his waistband, between his pants and underwear, as far as I can tell. You gonna keep leaking tidbits about the story or keep us guessing? > [@Scumpup](#): > > Beretta still makes some very high quality .25 pistols. FN still makes the Baby Browning. > Taurus makes a .25 that sells well enough that they keep producing it. There are also scads of good quality Colts, Walthers, and other 1st line manufacturer .25’s still in service. Damn few of them ever got shot enough to wear out, I expect. The .25 is alive and well and not just in “Ring of Fire” guns. I know about Bobcat et al. But I’m not sure that’s the top sellers. Plus there’s non-RoF crap brands, like Rohm. And I know lots of people like their Taurus, but they don’t have a great reputation. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/42 "2018-08-14T22:11:41Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Not that a 92 is anything like the size of a Desert Eagle or N-frame Smith revolver, mind. It’s just a full sized service semiautomatic pistol akin to a 1911 or Glock 17 in size. People do CC those, though. > > Period Lugers with matching parts are crazy expensive. I think the judge was just referring to another way of describing the 9 x 19 mm handgun cartridge, like calling the pistol a Parabellum. Beretta does make other pistols besides the 92 in 9mm x 19, FWIW. Really? I have one, tool, spare magazine and sidearm with original magazine, all s/n. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/43 "2018-08-14T22:21:38Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > You gonna keep leaking tidbits about the story or keep us guessing? > > I know about Bobcat et al. But I’m not sure that’s the top sellers. Plus there’s non-RoF crap brands, like Rohm. > > And I know lots of people like their Taurus, but they don’t have a great reputation. Since the advent of the truly pocket-sized .32 and .380 pistols, the demand for new .25 pistols has decreased. Beretta and FN, first line manufacturers, find them profitable enough to keep producing them. And, as I said, there are an awful lot of .25’s out there from previous eras that are still in use. i said it was alive and well, not that it was in great demand. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/44 "2018-08-15T01:14:37Z")
Given the choice between being shot with a .25 auto and a .22LR, I think I’d take the .25. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/45 "2018-08-15T02:33:35Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > You gonna keep leaking tidbits about the story or keep us guessing? Find it hard to search and link when I’m on my phone. 🙂 Plus, it’s a terrible story. Four young Mounties dead in 5 minutes; worst loss of life by violence in the RCMP’s history. Deceased tried to get away; got shot and badly wounded by a fifth Mountie; killed himself: [Mayerthorpe Tragedy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy) Two accomplices pled to manslaughter for giving him a rifle and driving him to the murder scene: [R v Hennessey; R v Cheeseman](https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2009/2009abqb60/2009abqb60.html) - Queen’s Bench decision; see para. 11 for Luger tucked in waistband. Fatality inquiry goes into it in detail: [Report to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General - Public Fatality Inquiry](https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/b1360153-b288-41a3-8637-112e0786d79b/resource/5556b599-6eb2-4ec6-bb79-eb19b7eb3bf8/download/2015-fatality-report-mayerthorpercmp.pdf) - p. 15 - Beretta handgun tucked into his pants. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/46 "2018-08-15T02:47:30Z")
Here’s a news article with a picture of two of the guns he had: the pistol, and a Winchester hunting rifle that he got from his accomplices. Not the Heckler & Koch. [RCMP release new Mayerthorpe photos](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rcmp-release-new-mayerthorpe-photos-1.798441) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/47 "2018-08-15T03:37:12Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Here’s a news article with a picture of two of the guns he had: the pistol, and a Winchester hunting rifle that he got from his accomplices. Not the Heckler & Koch. > > [RCMP release new Mayerthorpe photos](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rcmp-release-new-mayerthorpe-photos-1.798441) Thank you for posting the Report to the MoJ and the A.G., It was extremely informative. Ambushed 4+ Mounties with an HK 91 rifle, and damned near killed two more. Good thing Constable Vigor was on the ball. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/48 "2018-08-15T13:29:19Z")
> [@River\_Hippie](#): > > Given the choice between being shot with a .25 auto and a .22LR, I think I’d take the .25. From equivalent guns, there isn’t much difference. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/49 "2018-08-15T13:50:54Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > From equivalent guns, there isn’t much difference. The 22LR is likely to cause more infection as most of the bullets are lubed with grease. This grease tends to carry more debris for whatever clothing or other objects it passes through on the way into the body. The 25ACP is metal jacketed and may leave a cleaner wound channel. Of course I’d prerfer being shot with neither one. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/50 "2018-08-15T17:15:04Z")
I don’t remember the model but I had a Baretta .25 I carried all the time way back in 1957-8. Really reliable little weapon. Great pocket weapon. I wish I still had it. :: sigh ::: Wife has a little .32 semi-auto that is almost as good and is a great pocket weapon also. As always, know what they are good for and don’t hunt bears or such with them. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/51 "2018-08-15T17:43:40Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > The 22LR is likely to cause more infection as most of the bullets are lubed with grease. This grease tends to carry more debris for whatever clothing or other objects it passes through on the way into the body. The 25ACP is metal jacketed and may leave a cleaner wound channel. > > Of course I’d prerfer being shot with neither one. John M Browning reputedly designed the .25 as a more reliable replacement for the .22 in really small automatic pistols. Accordingly, he made it centerfire and rimless. Because of the rimless design, it uses bullets that fit inside the case mouth rather than the heeled bullets found in the .22lr. I have seen plain cast lead .25 bullets and hollowpoint .25 bullets, but most are, as you say, metal jacketed that improves feeding. In any event, Browning’s improvements still make the .25 a better choice in tiny automatics to this day. Both rounds rely exclusively on penetration for wounding at the velocities achieved from really short pistol barrels. Any mushrooming of hollow points just reduces penetration without really increasing the wound channel to a valuable degree. The metal jacket can actually be considered a feature, in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/52 "2018-08-15T19:29:13Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Really? I have one, tool, spare magazine and sidearm with original magazine, all s/n. I am not an expert, or even an aficionado of Luger values. However, there are easily findable resources where you could find the value of your pistol. AIUI, collectors prize pistols that are rare, in outstanding condition, where all of the serial numbers match, for all parts—and the list of parts that are numbered is considerable. See, for example, this quote from a collectors’ discussion board about Luger parts. [GUIDE TO BUYING AND UNDERSTANDING LUGERS | Gun Values Board](https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/guide-to-buying-and-understanding-lugers-1877.html) > [@](#): > > What parts must be numbered on a Luger? > > Depends if it is military of commercial. The following parts should have serial numbers on them: > > Frame - full serial number with suffix > Under barrel - full serial number with or without suffix > Left side of the receiver - full serial number without suffix > > All the following parts should have the last two numerals stamped on military guns: > > Firing pin > Extractor > Sear bar > Breechblock > Front toggle link > Rear toggle link > Locking bolt (takedown lever) > Side plate (with a few exceptions through the years, see comments on side plate) > Trigger > Safety lever > Safety bar > Hold-open latch > Grips (inside) > Note, that the rear toggle pin was not serial-numbered until 1932. > > There were two “styles” of serial number marking, Commercial style and Military style. In commercial style, some of the numbers, notably the side-plate and locking bolt, were stamped underneath in a way which did not affect the surface look of the gun–military serial numbers were stamped on the visible surfaces. If your mismatched parts are stamped highly visibly, they likely come from military guns. A lot more numbered parts than I suspected, but I’ve never owned a Luger. Condition is very important. 95%+ is often seen for the really pricey versions. If your pistol has all of these features, then I wouldn’t be surprised to see a value in the 1500 dollar plus range, vs a “shooter” Luger which would be worth much less. This Houston gun store ([http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/lugers/?sort=newest&page=1](http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/lugers/?sort=newest&page=1)), which is really more of a museum than a place you’d actually buy a gun, IMHO, has several Lugers in the 1700-8800 dollar range. Great place to browse though, and the staff is usually friendly. Gunbroker also has Lugers for sale, and is another way of seeing what these guns are selling for right now. Edit: Scumpup, all else remaining equal, isn’t the muzzle velocity on .22LR usually higher than that for .25ACP? Yet the muzzle velocity is usually low enough that the bullet doesn’t usually fragment? The reason I ask is that .22LR has a reputation for penetrating, while .25ACP definitely doesn’t, yet the sectional densities for typical bullets in both, 40 grain and 50 grain, is supposed to be really close. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/53 "2018-08-15T19:52:12Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Edit: Scumpup, all else remaining equal, isn’t the muzzle velocity on .22LR usually higher than that for .25ACP? Yet the muzzle velocity is usually low enough that the bullet doesn’t usually fragment? The reason I ask is that .22LR has a reputation for penetrating, while .25ACP definitely doesn’t, yet the sectional densities for typical bullets in both, 40 grain and 50 grain, is supposed to be really close. When fired from barrels of the same length, performance is about equal. The .22 benefits from having pistols and rifles with longer barrels available. Other than a couple of bizarre European revolvers from the 1920s, I’ve never seen anything other than small automatics that use the .25. Those revos were tiny, too. Anyway, firing a .22 from even a four inch barrel will boost the velocity above what a .25 with a two inch barrel yields. [This short article deals with the topic](https://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/07/13/case-25acp/) ---
**Author:** ![Sloe\_Moe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sloe\_Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sloe_Moe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474/54 "2018-08-16T00:52:32Z")
I recall the Ingram MAC used to be made in all ACP’s from .25 to .45 but ironically, the European 9mm was the most popular. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-baretta-and-luger-hand-guns-the-same-thing/819474.md?page=2)