# Are bat manufacturers responsible for injuries to pitchers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558 "2002-04-19T18:12:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/21 "2002-04-20T16:35:42Z")
I don’t see where the relative difference between types of bats would matter. Wooden bats are rarely if ever used at **any** level of amateur competition, for almost solely economic reasons (hint: they don’t break). I would bet this kid has never played with anything but aluminum in his life. I would also bet that he has seen numerous other players hit by batted balls and injured. I can only hope the case is found frivolous and the parents enjoy large amounts of public humiliation. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/22 "2002-04-21T04:50:06Z")
I have to say that after years of having my kids in both baseball and softball, I didn’t know that aluminum bats were faster. But, even with that, wooden bats have caused the same kinds of injuries. Even at the pro level. Is there really enough difference at a high school level that it would be easier for a pitcher to get out of the way of a ball coming off a wooden bat? In the distance involved is there really a significant time difference? I really am asking, even though I’m a little skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/23 "2002-04-21T05:19:00Z")
I’m going to weigh in on the side of dismissal (demurrer here in California) rather than summary judgment. The complaint on its face would show an assumption of the risk: there is always a danger to the pitcher of severe head injury, wooden or aluminium. Baseball has inherent dangers even to the spectators. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/24 "2002-04-21T05:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DPWhite \* > \*\*Baseball has inherent dangers even to the spectators. \*\* Cecil [wrote](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_300.html) about this many years ago. As for the OP, it definitely sounds like a frivolous lawsuit to me. I think that unless the plaintiffs can show that the particular aluminum bat was specifically _designed_ to produce a higher ball speed than any other aluminum bat, this case doesn’t stand much of a chance. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/25 "2002-04-21T07:08:42Z")
No way does it have to have been intentionally _designed_ to produce higher ball speeds, Atreyu. Products liability is based in large part on strict liability, which means that if the product is “defective” (by defect, design, or inadequate warning), the manufacturer will be liable for any injury. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/26 "2002-04-21T07:13:56Z")
Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out, **minty green**. Obviously I’m not a lawyer. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Ned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ned)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/27 "2002-04-21T10:17:37Z")
A little searching on bats tells me that this case might not be quite as frivolous as you are all assuming. First, I found an [article](http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/techtransfer/baseball.htm) on the development of aluminum bats containing pressurized air compartments which indicates that they are continuing to get better and have more power than a standard aluminum bat. They also mention the reason that aluminum bats aren’t used in pro ball. > [@](#): > > Why aren’t the aluminum bats used in pro ball? Tradition is a factor, but so too is safety. In the hands of a professional ballplayer, an aluminum bat can drive a ball at speeds that could cause injury to the infielders. The I found a site that had reviews on the air attack 3 which I assume is similar to the air attack 2. The reviews make me think this isn’t just a matter of aluminum bats. They contain statements like “This is a very big bat for very big boys, and it can hit the ball farther than any other brand name baseball bat” or hitting with this bat is like shooting off a cannon. One review in particular was particullarly on point. > [@](#): > > This is bat is friend or foe depending if your play offensive or defense. If you’re the batter using this bat you have homerun power and that should make you pretty confident. This allows for the high offensive game that almost everybody loves. How many people here pitch, those who have known how discouraging it is to have ball after ball after ball hit for a homerun. That is just emotional but look at all the power behind the ball when it hit off a bat. Now imagine that coming straight for your head and cracking you up side the head or you might not even see the ball hit you. I can give you a good example, when Mike Mussian of the Baltimore Orioles got hit in the head he didn’t even have time to react and that was with a wooden bat. The power in an aluminum bat is twice as much as a wood bat so think of the damage it would have done, If it were an aluminum bat. With the fun of seeing a 400-foot homer also comes the possibility of serious injury. The call is you but think what could happen if you best friend put one down the middle. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/28 "2002-04-21T20:20:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\* > > Maybe I’m missing something here, but > > The _batter_ is using the bat > The batter or the batter’s team owns the bat > > So what good would the label do for a pitcher? > \*\* Let’s assume that the bat in question is inherently dangerous. I think a jury could find that, had a proper warning been on the bat, then the batter, his coach, the school, or the league would have taken precautions that would have benefitted the pitcher. Certainly if I discovered that my child were using athletic equipment that posed a special hazard to other players, I wouldn’t let him or her use it. (And I would make sure that the other players weren’t using it.) \*\* > [@](#): > > It’s not quite as simple as that. Aluminum bats do cause the ball to fly off at a faster speed.But that’s not the only factor in safety. My 11 year old son has played in a few different different baseball leagues.They usually haven’t allowed wooden bats. While aluminum bats cause a faster speed, they also don’t splinter or shatter ( not an insignificant factor with kids who may leave the bats outside in all sorts of weather). > \*\* Well, it would be for a jury to evaluate the pros and cons. In any event, the plaintiff would be entitled to argue that (1) there is a better alternative design, aluminum or wood; and (2) in any event, he (or the coach, league, etc.) was entitled to a warning. \*\* > [@](#): > > I find it difficult to believe that a 17 year old high school pitcher knows less about bats than the average 11 year old baseball player I run into. They not only know that aluminum is faster, they know which models are likely to be faster than others.And it seems to me that to blame the aluminum bat for the injury, ther’s an implication that he could have gotten out of the way if only a wooden bat had been used. How could he possibly know that? > > \*\* Again, it would be for the jury to decide. In any event, it seems logical to me that, at a minimum, the plaintiff’s injuries would have been less severe had a wooden bat been used. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/29 "2002-04-21T21:30:38Z")
**lucwarm** , I’m not arguing that it shouldn’t be left to a jury to decide, but it’s not enough to assume that the bat is inherently dangerous- any bat, and for that matter the game of baseball, is. The lawsuit allleges that the bat is defective because: 1 it doesn’t give the pitcher sufficient time to react 2 the company failed to warn users and those who could be affected of the risk that when hit directly toward the pitcher it doesn’t give the pitcher enough time to react 3 failed to affix labels 4 designed a product that lacked adequate safety features (pick any or all of the above) and that > [@](#): > > 1. H&B engaged in conduct which shows, at a minimum, an utter indifference to or conscious disregard for the safety of Hannant in that at all relevant times, and prior to April 1, 2000, H&B knew that the Bat, when used in a reasonably foreseeable manner, was sufficiently dangerous to cause catastrophic injury to a pitcher such as Hannant due to the excessive exit velocity at which a baseball would leave the Bat upon contact and further knew that the heightened performance of the Bat in this manner was beyond the reasonable contemplation of Hannant or any other user and therefore, unreasonably dangerous. > [@](#): > > originally posted by lucwarm > I think a jury could find that, had a proper warning been on the bat, then the batter, his coach, the school, or the league would have taken precautions that would have benefitted the pitcher. Certainly if I discovered that my child were using athletic equipment that posed a special hazard to other players, I wouldn’t let him or her use it. (And I would make sure that the other players weren’t using it.) IANAL, but I don’t think he can argue that if the coach or league were warned they would have taken precautions. I think that can only happen if he sues the league for negligence in allowing the bat, or the batter for using it and they then drag the manufacturer in. My real problem is this line : > [@](#): > > knew that the heightened performance of the Bat in this manner was beyond the reasonable contemplation of Hannant or any other user I suppose this might be true if the bat in question were the only aluminum bat on the market, or even if there was an allegation that this bat is much more dangerous than other aluminum bats (but there wasn’t). But it seems to be pretty common knowledge among those who know and play baseball that aluminum bats > [@](#): > > hit a baseball harder, faster and farther than a traditional wooden baseball bat. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/30 "2002-04-21T21:58:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\ ***lucwarm** , > > I’m not arguing that it shouldn’t be left to a jury to decide, but it’s not enough to assume that the bat is inherently dangerous- any bat, and for that matter the game of baseball, is. > \*\* When I said to assume that the bat is inherently dangerous, my intention was to assume that all issues were favorable to the plaintiff except for the one you initially raised – the fact that any warning would have been unlikely to be seen by the pitcher. I concede I could have been clearer. > [@](#): > > \*\* > IANAL, but I don’t think he can argue that if the coach or league were warned they would have taken precautions. I think that can only happen if he sues the league for negligence in allowing the bat, or the batter for using it and they then drag the manufacturer in. \*\* Well, I don’t really know the answer for sure, but I do know that, generally speaking, third parties who are reasonably foreseeably injured by defective products can bring direct actions against the manufacturer. I don’t see why this principal would not also apply to “failure to warn” claims. But feel free to come up with a cite that says otherwise. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I suppose this might be true if the bat in question were the only aluminum bat on the market, or even if there was an allegation that this bat is much more dangerous than other aluminum bats (but there wasn’t). But it seems to be pretty common knowledge among those who know and play baseball that aluminum bats \*\* I’d be interested to see the complaint in this case. ---
**Author:** ![sward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/51bf81/32.png) [@sward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sward)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/31 "2002-04-21T22:51:07Z")
Next they’ll be going after gun makers. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/32 "2002-04-21T23:04:11Z")
lucwarm- go to the link in the OP for the complaint ---
**Author:** ![Jibby7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/65b543/32.png) [@Jibby7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jibby7)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/33 "2002-04-23T04:55:22Z")
Unngh. I played baseball for 13 years before giving it up for that wonderful sport softball, where you can drink and play at the same time. I stood on pitching mounds much like this 17 year old. I knew from a damn young age that baseballs move fast when a good hitter gets a hold of a pitch, and it doesn’t matter if they are using a wood or an aluminum bat. I’ve been hit by several line drives up the middle (fortunately, not in the head), and I will tell you that if a hitter connects, it doesn’t matter what that bat is made of, its going to hit you. You are 60’6" away from the hitter, and that ball comes off of any bat, aluminum or wood, much faster than the speed at which you threw it. I’d be interested to see this young man’s delivery to the plate. Pitchers are taught that they need to be in enough control of their bodies to be in a position to defend themselves when the ball is hit. Some pitchers do not do this because they cannot throw the ball as hard. If this pitcher’s delivery were such that he were “falling off” the mound after a pitch, then coaching and/or the pitcher are as much to blame as the bat. I was the type of pitcher who followed through my body and left it in a horrible position when the ball was hit. But I knew that danger was there. I also wanted to play at the next level. But even if his delivery was the classic delivery, a batted ball can move at a pitcher faster than he/she can react some times. Proper mechanics make it less likely. As someone who played the game, this is a frivolous suit. If you have reached the high school level of baseball, you know the risks. The bat isn’t even in the equation. If that pitcher has never had a ball fly past him without ever seeing it, then I want to sign him up for the Brewers when he gets better, because he must have some remarkable stuff. In this litigous country, and myself not being a lawyer, it is hard for me to say whether a court will find this legit. But IMHO, the kid new before going out there, with or without a warning label, wood or aluminum, that this was possible. Where I can see a legit case along this line was a case several years ago where the caps on the end of a particular bat was popping off at very high speeds when the ball was hit, injuring people. That is a legit case to go after a bat maker. Or an aluminum bat that shears off (which I’ve seen). In this case, no. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/34 "2002-04-23T15:48:21Z")
Holy beanballs Bat Manufacturer! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![porkchop\_d\_clown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@porkchop\_d\_clown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porkchop_d_clown)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/35 "2002-04-23T16:03:56Z")
Oh, man. So I have to admit that this ranks up there with the McDonald’s coffee incident. It’s so hard to repress the urge to demand that people be given an IQ test before we let them have a breeding permit. Kids can get hurt playing baseball? My gosh! We’d better pass a law! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/36 "2002-04-23T16:31:12Z")
Please do a search in the Great Debates archives so that you can learn a little about “the McDonald’s coffee incident.” To pass that off so blithely indicates that you know very little about the evidence of McDonald’s conduct or the trial and subsequent appeal of the plaintiff’s claims. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558/37 "2002-04-23T17:02:10Z")
**porkchop** , you’re new here, so this is part of the initiation rites, along with words ending in -gry and the like. On this board, saying something’s analogous to the [McDonald’s coffee](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22459) case is saying that, despite how stupid it looks at first blush, it’s actually on very solid ground. (Follow the link to see how the argument went when we initially hashed this one out.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-bat-manufacturers-responsible-for-injuries-to-pitchers/104558.md?page=1)