# Are Biofuels contributing to World Hunger? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003 "2008-04-26T23:05:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/21 "2008-04-30T02:40:26Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] What becomes of the slops 9leftovers0 from brewing ethanol from corn? Can’t it be dried and processed into cattle feed? Only about 20% of the sugars in corn get converted into ethanol-so really, is corn for fuel really wasting all of it? [/QUOTE] That could result in a tragic shortage of movie popcorn, which I think would be the worst of all possible worlds. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/22 "2008-04-30T19:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] I´ve heard about interesting developments on fuel production using algae instead of land crops… [/QUOTE] Y’know, algae would be just about perfect, assuming Kertz’s, “50 percent of their weight is oil,” and, “he can produce about 100,000 gallons of algae oil a year per acre, compared to about 30 gallons per acre from corn; 50 gallons from soybeans,” are anywhere close to accurate. The processing to a diesel-grade fuel would be, relative to ethanol, nearly free and the leftovers, like those of corn and soy squeezins, would make fine animal feed. The high productivity would reduce the amount of farmland required; in fact, crappy land and a bit of water (but less than what is needed for irrigating a thirsty crop like corn, especially since much of it can be reused) in a sunny locale is all you’d need, though the technology would make startup costs pretty high. Sometimes it’s good I don’t have any money because it can save me from myself; I’ve practically talked myself into not only subscribing to Kertz’s newsletter but also buying stock in his company. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/23 "2008-05-02T03:20:43Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] It’s naive to think that we can convert food cropland to biofuel cropland and not see an increase in food prices, or a reduced supply of food. Of course growing fuel crops instead of food crops will increase the cost of food. [/QUOTE] The question is how much land is currently set aside for farming by the US government? 2nd question, can arrid land be used to produce fuel (such as the algae suggestion). I’d like to see deserts used for solar thermal energy production. This would be a boon for the West Coast folks. If we can grow algae fuel oil in the same location then sign me up. I’ll buy a diesel car as soon as my current one dies. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/24 "2008-05-02T06:33:18Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] The question is how much land is currently set aside for farming by the US government? 2nd question, can arrid land be used to produce fuel (such as the algae suggestion). I’d like to see deserts used for solar thermal energy production. This would be a boon for the West Coast folks. If we can grow algae fuel oil in the same location then sign me up. I’ll buy a diesel car as soon as my current one dies. [/QUOTE] I don’t know the answers to your questions, but it’s reasonable to assume that solar energy just isn’t good enough to justify the cost of building and maintaining the infrastructure it requires. If anyone could profit from a massive-scale solar energy grid, you can bet your rent that we would be seeing construction on it now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/25 "2008-05-02T07:03:04Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] I don’t know the answers to your questions, but it’s reasonable to assume that solar energy just isn’t good enough to justify the cost of building and maintaining the infrastructure it requires. If anyone could profit from a massive-scale solar energy grid, you can bet your rent that we would be seeing construction on it now. [/QUOTE] I’m only advocating [solar thermal pwer plants](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/06/business/06solar.html) and really only on the west coast. Currently there are 9 plants like this in the US built between 1984 and 1991. We have the land mass to support all the electrical needs of the United States but I’m sure there’s an endangered virus that prevents us from actually building a pollution-free power grid. That and it’s twice the operating cost of a coal fired plant. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/26 "2008-05-02T08:50:42Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] I don’t know the answers to your questions, but it’s reasonable to assume that solar energy just isn’t good enough to justify the cost of building and maintaining the infrastructure it requires. If anyone could profit from a massive-scale solar energy grid, you can bet your rent that we would be seeing construction on it now. [/QUOTE] [Spain has one.](http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jun2006/2006-06-30-02.asp)[Arizona’s getting one.](http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/26/280-megawatt-solar-plant-headed-to-arizona-desert/)[Nevada’s got one.](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/06/business/06solar.html?_r=2&ref=science&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)[As does New Mexico.](http://www.sandia.gov/news/resources/releases/2008/solargrid.html) Don’t have time to dig for cites, but more are planned for California, and IIRC, it’d only take about 1,000 square miles of such plants to meet the US electrical demands, even accounting for such things as night and bad weather. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/27 "2008-05-02T14:10:38Z")
Re solar power on a large scale, you may find [this Austrlian coalitions plans](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23607840-30417,00.html?from=public_rss) to be of interest. > [@](#): > > the Coalition’s vision for a “solar continent”, in which the energy source could be stored and sold on the market like coal-generated, baseload power… two broad components - increased use of solar photovoltaic power to boost short-term peaking capacity and solar baseload power generated by solar concentrators… The 154 MW solar concentrator being constructed at Mildura, Victoria, will be the largest solar station in the world and the first major local plant generating baseload power. Australia with their ample sun resources could, if the technology becomes feasible, also become the world’s largest producer of algal biodiesel. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/28 "2008-05-02T14:38:20Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] Australia with their ample sun resources could, if the technology becomes feasible, also become the world’s largest producer of algal biodiesel. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that was my choice, too, except I keep bumping up against the water problem. You may not need much, it probably doesn’t need to be sweet, and the project has to make more money per hectare than sheep, so it might be doable. Rut-roh. In my mind’s eye I’m seeing furry things with teeth biting open the plastic bags full of algae and water. Better move it to the coast and use sea water. But what’s the weather like on the south coast? A hurricane could wipe out the entire plant, especially with the racks standing like rows of sails. Glad I didn’t invest in this. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/29 "2008-05-02T15:14:29Z")
Clearly, the use of food crops for bio-fuels is not the ideal solution. Can such a solution be found, if we put the same human ingenuity towards it that we put towards the production of loud, shiny crap? I think so. Of course, the dirty fucking hippies started screaming about this shit forty years ago, mightn’t we be much better off had we listended? Just sayin’, is all. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/30 "2008-05-02T15:19:42Z")
Well, if you can’t trust dirty and rutting hippies, who can you trust?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/31 "2008-05-02T15:33:23Z")
Well groomed suits who would rather make money than breathe? Ah, if only the hippies had had more faith in the sublime magic of the Free Market… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/32 "2008-05-02T15:44:07Z")
If only they did the world would be a better place, aye. Hell, if only they understood it the world would be a little bit more toward the goal of the board. And if only they would wash it would be a bit less uncomfortable sitting next to them on the bus… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/33 "2008-05-02T16:02:59Z")
And there he sits, denied the ineffable joy of your company and the splendor of your presence. Perhaps if you offered to share a spritz of your Old Spice? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/34 "2008-05-02T16:10:33Z")
English Leather actually. 🙂 And to be sure…I would be more than happy to share some cologne with him, as long as he’d share a friendly toke of some of his weed with me in return. I’m a live and let live kind of guy after all… -XT ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/35 "2008-05-02T16:43:56Z")
Hey who did the dirty hippies grow to become? In many cases the well groomed suits! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/36 "2008-05-02T17:50:40Z")
Yeah, but they sold out, man. Sold out to the Man, man. They stopped being part of the solution, man, and started being part of the problem. Man. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/37 "2008-05-02T22:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Clearly, the use of food crops for bio-fuels is not the ideal solution. Can such a solution be found, if we put the same human ingenuity towards it that we put towards the production of loud, shiny crap? I think so. Of course, the dirty fucking hippies started screaming about this shit forty years ago, mightn’t we be much better off had we listended? Just sayin’, is all. [/QUOTE] Hell, anybody can bitch about something. Where’s the solution the dirty hippies had 40 years to develope? I’m not proud, I’ll buy it. Hemp sandals to walk to work in ain’t gonna cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/38 "2008-05-02T22:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Hell, anybody can bitch about something. Where’s the solution the dirty hippies had 40 years to develope? I’m not proud, I’ll buy it. Hemp sandals to walk to work in ain’t gonna cut it. [/QUOTE] Well, Bucky Fuller (who inspired many a dirty hippy) designed [this car](http://www.washedashore.com/projects/dymax/index.html) in the 1930s. > [@](#): > > It was about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10 passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90 horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of gas. Fuller referred to it as the “Dymaxion Car”, “Dymaxion Vehicle”, and “Omni-Medium Transport” since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water, or sky. Only three were ever built. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/39 "2008-05-02T22:34:59Z")
Other dirty hippies [figured out how to build your own hybrid in 1980.](https://www.motherearthnews.com/shopping/detail.aspx?itemnumber=1764) The information’s out there, you just have to know where to look. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003/40 "2008-05-02T23:13:53Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Well, Bucky Fuller (who inspired many a dirty hippy) designed [this car](http://www.washedashore.com/projects/dymax/index.html) in the 1930s. [/QUOTE] My car already gets 38 mpg and it’s not a deathmobile. And you use to be able to buy an electric car in my city in 1911 (called the Dayton Electic). It doesn’t suprise me that [Bucky inspired hippies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller): **He traveled the world giving lectures, and received numerous honorary doctorates. Most of his inventions, however, never made it into production** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-biofuels-contributing-to-world-hunger/447003.md?page=3)