# Are California's problems really the fault of socialism and welfare abuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664 "2015-07-31T18:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/41 "2015-08-01T01:15:43Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Now, when a company wants to sell a property, it doesn’t sell the property. It sells the subsidiary that owns the property. So the property itself doesn’t change owners, and doesn’t get re-assessed. Huh. I was wondering about that. Our company is building a big new campus and it’s all done under the name of XYZ Property Development LLC or something along those lines. I figured it had to be a tax dodge of some sort but wasn’t sure of the specifics. > [@Voyager](#): > > And it’s going to screw up my commute. I’m glad I’m retiring before they all come on line - the ones on Zanker have screwed things up already. Even at 11:30 (my usual commute time), it’s getting pretty bad. Well, I’ll take it if it means the industry is doing well. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/42 "2015-08-01T01:18:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. The OP says " I hear people often complain that the reason California is expensive is because ‘illegals’ and ‘free-loaders’" > > California is “expensive” mainly because of real estate. If you exclude real estate, CA is not so “expensive”. We pay more for gas, but things like food and clothes, etc cost about as much as everywhere else. However, the people I hear making the claim (and I hear it in discussion and see it on message boards more than I see it in formal discourse) are arguing that California is expensive because Californians pay horrendously high taxes to support all of those illegals and freeloaders who use medical care and fill the jails and collect welfare and so forth and so on. For example, a commenter in my local paper in 2011: “A despicable example is the Sanctuary State of California that is still suffering from a $24 Billion dollar treasury loss and still being monetarily ransacked by illegal aliens education, health care, public programs and overcrowded prisons.” – [House steps closer to tuition repeal](http://cjonline.com/legislature/state-government/2011-02-21/house-steps-closer-tuition-repeal) Personally, I think California is expensive because of the real estate market, but that’s not the argument I am reporting. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/43 "2015-08-01T01:21:01Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > The right fringe needs to make up its collective mind and get its story straight. Is it the illegals or Obama that is to blame for everything? Well, Obama is the one who loves illegals and encourages them to come here, so BOTH. Are you assuming that the right fringe actually has a collective mind to make up? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/44 "2015-08-01T01:36:11Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > However, the people I hear making the claim (and I hear it in discussion and see it on message boards more than I see it in formal discourse) are arguing that California is expensive because Californians pay horrendously high taxes to support all of those illegals and freeloaders who use medical care and fill the jails and collect welfare and so forth and so on. > > For example, a commenter in my local paper in 2011: “A despicable example is the Sanctuary State of California that is still suffering from a $24 Billion dollar treasury loss and still being monetarily ransacked by illegal aliens education, health care, public programs and overcrowded prisons.” – [House steps closer to tuition repeal](http://cjonline.com/legislature/state-government/2011-02-21/house-steps-closer-tuition-repeal) > > Personally, I think California is expensive because of the real estate market, but that’s not the argument I am reporting. I’ll give you credit for at least giving a cite, but it really doesn’t say what that OP is saying. I’m still calling BS on his premise, and he needs to back it up with actual data. Otherwise, it’s just yet another opportunity for partisan bickering over complete bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/45 "2015-08-01T02:52:47Z")
What, labeling an American state government as ‘socialist’ wasn’t enough of a clue? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/46 "2015-08-01T03:00:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s really hilarious considering we have a surplus and as far as I hear, your governor has driven Kansas into deficit. The projected long-term shortfall for California’s pension system is [$90 billion, or $300 billion, or $500 billion](http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478466-stanford-pension.html), depending on who calculates and how. The state hit a massive financial disaster during the recession years and had to make drastic cutbacks, furloughing workers, closing some state parks, and slashing budgets at school and universities and everywhere else. [Poverty rates](http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2015/07/what-happens-to-poverty-and-other-state-economic-stats-when-one-finally-takes-into-account-different-state-cost-of-living-levels.html) are high and rising. Small businesses face huge obstacles from enormous amounts of law, intended to make it easy for lawyers to sue and grab their money over [all kinds](http://www.lodinews.com/opinion/columnists/guest_columnists/article_658e167c-f9ee-11e4-b831-7fafe6995080.html) of [tiny things](https://cei.org/blog/obama-%E2%80%9Cfair-pay-and-safe-workplaces%E2%80%9D-executive-order-will-punish-firms-pro-worker-states). So yeah, California’s messed up, but it’s not because of immigrants or welfare queens. It’s because of lawyers, politicians, labor bosses, and crony capitalists–rich, native-born people, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/47 "2015-08-01T03:00:56Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Business properties are already exempt from Prop. 13 in the opposite direction, due to a loophole in the law big enough to drive Donald Trump’s ego through. Even when they actually sell properties, they don’t get re-assessed, if the owner has arranged the finances right. Let’s get a proposition on the ballot to close this loophole. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/48 "2015-08-01T03:11:48Z")
NM. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/49 "2015-08-01T03:41:22Z")
It’s said that California is the 8[sup]th[/sup] largest economy in the world and it compares very closely to either Germany or France. I don’t see any problems here, the high cost of real estate is because everyone wants a piece, nothing else … when’s the last time you wintered in Indiana or Illinois? California’s the Golden State not just that there’s gold in her rivers … everything there turns to gold … it’s an amazing place to live no matter who you are … because there’s a golden place just for you. I’m sure their government is having problems, but that doesn’t seem to translate to business having problems. Taxes are high because The People demand so much. They have one of the finest education systems in the world, a mileage of paved roads that would scramble your local transportation manager’s brains, commerce and industry at magnitudes to spur one of the strongest environmental movements … the list goes on … You’re a conservative, you gotta like Ronald Reagan …you’re a liberal, you gotta like Moonbeam … California produces the finest political minds across the spectrum. Absolutely California is place you wanna go … ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/50 "2015-08-01T04:18:31Z")
One of California’s main problems is that development continues as if the water supply will magically re-appear and everyone can go back to twenty-minute showers and watering their lawns every day. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/51 "2015-08-01T04:59:14Z")
Re: deficit spending - yes a balanced budget is required but components of that budget can be estimates. Sometimes the estimates are wrong and the difference can be covered with short twm borrowings. Is the loophole for property sales preserving the tax basis 1031 exchanges? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/52 "2015-08-01T06:21:58Z")
damn those socialists. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/53 "2015-08-01T23:55:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The projected long-term shortfall for California’s pension system is [$90 billion, or $300 billion, or $500 billion](http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478466-stanford-pension.html), depending on who calculates and how. The state hit a massive financial disaster during the recession years and had to make drastic cutbacks, furloughing workers, closing some state parks, and slashing budgets at school and universities and everywhere else. [Poverty rates](http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2015/07/what-happens-to-poverty-and-other-state-economic-stats-when-one-finally-takes-into-account-different-state-cost-of-living-levels.html) are high and rising. Small businesses face huge obstacles from enormous amounts of law, intended to make it easy for lawyers to sue and grab their money over [all kinds](http://www.lodinews.com/opinion/columnists/guest_columnists/article_658e167c-f9ee-11e4-b831-7fafe6995080.html) of [tiny things](https://cei.org/blog/obama-%E2%80%9Cfair-pay-and-safe-workplaces%E2%80%9D-executive-order-will-punish-firms-pro-worker-states). > > So yeah, California’s messed up, but it’s not because of immigrants or welfare queens. It’s because of lawyers, politicians, labor bosses, and crony capitalists–rich, native-born people, in other words. Nice moving the goalposts there. Lots and lots of states have pension issues thanks to right wing politicians and tax haters underfunding them. Note that all these links go to a blog the first link of which is to a climate change denial article. The fact remains that we have a surplus and Kansas does not. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/54 "2015-08-02T00:08:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Nice moving the goalposts there. Lots and lots of states have pension issues thanks to right wing politicians and tax haters underfunding them. Just to use one example, which right wing politicians caused the pension issues in Illinois? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/55 "2015-08-02T00:12:29Z")
Immigrants and welfare queens are too busy messing up the climate. ---
**Author:** ![94112js](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/50afbb/32.png) [@94112js](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/94112js)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/56 "2015-08-06T03:01:35Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > While this is part of the real estate problem another major part of that problem is zoning and building codes. > > Labor unions for government employees is another part of the problem, at least in some areas. IMHO, I have often felt that the the Fed has held too much land off the market in CA to support land price levels and concentrate development. Over 40% of entire state I believe. Although it is a lovely place to live CA is essentially reclaimed desert land. Agriculture and urbanization both compete for limited water resources. Generally, any competition inherently increases value supporting reference: [Just How Much Land Does the Federal Government Own — and Why? - Big Think](http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/291-federal-lands-in-the-us) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/57 "2015-08-06T03:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > CA is essentially reclaimed desert land California is a very large place. SOME of it is reclaimed desert land. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/58 "2015-08-06T04:06:14Z")
[One of the reclaimed deserts of California.](http://www.vangabonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/year-one/california-redwoods.JPG) [Before we showed up, this was all sand dunes.](http://www.1zoom.net/big2/782/305259-svetik.jpg) [Utterly barren.](http://www.wondermondo.com/Images/NAmerica/USA/California/GormanHills2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/59 "2015-08-06T04:13:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [One of the reclaimed deserts of California.](http://www.vangabonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/year-one/california-redwoods.JPG) > > [Before we showed up, this was all sand dunes.](http://www.1zoom.net/big2/782/305259-svetik.jpg) > > [Utterly barren.](http://www.wondermondo.com/Images/NAmerica/USA/California/GormanHills2.jpg) +1 ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664/60 "2015-08-06T05:00:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [One of the reclaimed deserts of California.](http://www.vangabonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/year-one/california-redwoods.JPG) Hey! I saw that picture with its original caption in an old National Geographic. It’s an autochrome of the Sahara Forest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-californias-problems-really-the-fault-of-socialism-and-welfare-abuse/726664.md?page=4)