# Are cannons still used in combat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 11, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292 "2010-07-11T12:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/1 "2010-07-11T12:43:46Z")
Watching the Boston Pops’ 4th of July celebration, with their signature 1812 Overture and accompanying cannon made me wonder; are cannons still used for combat purposes? I am asking about stereotypical stationary or carriage-mounted cannons; not heavy guns mounted in airplanes or tanks, etc which may also be called cannons. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/2 "2010-07-11T12:57:35Z")
You mean artillery like an [M119](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M119_howitzer)? I’m pretty sure every army in the world has at least one. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/3 "2010-07-11T18:19:54Z")
North Korea has a shitload of modern artillery in range of Seoul, SK. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/4 "2010-07-11T20:18:31Z")
I assume that by ‘cannon’, it is meant the non-rifled bore and no ‘sighting apparatus’ upon it that shot out either rounded balls and/or scattershot (like shotgun, but much larger bore). Those type ‘tubes’ are probably now just museum pieces with so many rifled ‘howitzers’ and other similar tubes made nowadays. The Artillery Museum at Ft Sill, OK (Artillery Capital/Training Center of World, literally) has great display pieces from ‘over the years’, including plenty of ‘cannon’ (smooth bore, ball-like projectile) but those are not shown/displayed as ‘in use’ past a few hundred years ago (give or take). As soon as the ability to make rifled bores and matching projectiles became en vogue, the ‘cannon’ of old became near useless. There was practically no accuracy without that rifling/matched ammo (in comparison). Much safer, too, having better ammunition (self-contained powder/projectile, per se). Making those old-fashioned cannon tubes is not easy, and overloading one will ruin it in one shot, such as splitting open the tube. It also took more labor to operate the old-style cannon - powder, balls, cleaning tube itself between rounds, etc, etc. Newer styles just need to have the shell shoved in and pull the lanyard, and repeat. Much more ‘automated’ and safe to operator(s), imho. (I am hearing a LOT of artillery at the moment from Ft Sill, so must be a training day for them guys. So glad I am no longer involved with Red Leg stuff, but I do miss watching them guns fire and having access to all kinds of used brass. Last time I went to the Arty museum, the computer systems I maintained were shown in the ‘antique’ row (TACFire/Firefinders et al…made me feel sooooo old, LOL) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/5 "2010-07-11T21:22:56Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > You mean artillery like an [M119](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M119_howitzer)? I’m pretty sure every army in the world has at least one. Actually, I’d be surprised if many armies used modern lightweight artillery like the M119 - rapid airnborne deployment is something the U.S. military places special emphasis on, much more than any other nation. Now, if you said M109, I’d agree. Self-propelled artillery is pretty ubiquitous. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/6 "2010-07-11T21:27:05Z")
> [@UncleFred](#): > > Watching the Boston Pops’ 4th of July celebration, with their signature 1812 Overture and accompanying cannon made me wonder; are cannons still used for combat purposes? > > I am asking about stereotypical stationary or carriage-mounted cannons; not heavy guns mounted in airplanes or tanks, etc which may also be called cannons. At this point, probably just revolutionary and civil war re enactments. Navies probably use some sort of miniature chase gun for salutation purposes. Declan ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/7 "2010-07-11T21:50:41Z")
\*\*Ionizer \*\* - For the sake of completeness, I feel I should mention that many modern tank guns have gone back to using a smoothbore barrel. These weapons aren’t really considered “artillery” though. They typically fire a sabot dart stabalized by fins on the projectile, not rifling in the barrel. > [@Alessan](#): > > Now, if you said M109, I’d agree. Self-propelled artillery is pretty ubiquitous. But also expensive, compared to a field gun towed behind a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/8 "2010-07-11T22:23:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But also expensive, compared to a field gun towed behind a truck. True, but the M119 mentioned isn’t just a towed cannon, it’s a lightweight cannon designed to be transporable by helicopter. That’s what’s makes it so special. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/9 "2010-07-11T22:46:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > \*\*Ionizer \*\* - For the sake of completeness, I feel I should mention that many modern tank guns have gone back to using a smoothbore barrel. These weapons aren’t really considered “artillery” though. They typically fire a sabot dart stabalized by fins on the projectile, not rifling in the barrel. For sure - I was just kinda saying what made typical ‘cannon’ obsolete. And then it went to the cartridge improvements which negated the barrel stuff, of course. I just forgot to put that part in as I was thinking more of the miles-away long-range shooting than closer-up stuff. Next time I am in Lawton (tomorrow??), I’m gonna have to by the museum and other displays of tube-guns to look in barrels for rifling. My curiosity is slightly piqued now, for sure; thx for reminding me 🙂 There was a pretty good show (maybe History Channel or similar?) a few months ago that described the history/evolution of cannon/tube-guns that had that “Gunny” Marine fellow giving the what-nots of the guns and what changes were done that made them better than the previous iteration(s). I wish I could remember the name of show as it was very good with details about this exact OP topic. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/10 "2010-07-11T23:05:34Z")
Either way, the US also has the M198, which is a pretty standard 155mm towed artillery piece. Not too long ago last century there were also all sorts of field guns, infantry guns, and anti-tank guns. The infantry gun of WW2 was probably the last to be used in a similar role to the field artillery pieces of the 18th and 19th centuries. They were towable guns like the M3 meant to support infantry units with direct fire; i.e. shooting explosive shells with a flat trajectory at targets you can see. Though most of the big powers stopped using them after WW2, I’d guess some of them stuck around in national guard arsenals or the armies of third world countries. Still, though, they were breach-loading and rifled and a lot more advanced than the 18th/early 19th century cannons the OP is thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/11 "2010-07-11T23:19:35Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > There was a pretty good show (maybe History Channel or similar?) a few months ago that described the history/evolution of cannon/tube-guns that had that “Gunny” Marine fellow giving the what-nots of the guns and what changes were done that made them better than the previous iteration(s). I wish I could remember the name of show as it was very good with details about this exact OP topic. [Lock ‘N’ Load](http://www.casttv.com/shows/lock-n-load/artillery/wd79z11) with R. Lee Ermey. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/12 "2010-07-11T23:57:29Z")
The M119 105mm howitzer was a British development borrowed and improved for US light infantry use. The 82nd, 10th, 101st, and 25th Infantry divisions use this weapon. British and French light infantry also use these weapons. As stated above, the M198 155mm is also a towed howitzer. The latest is the M777 155mm howitzer; very advanced and most structural components are now titainium. It will reach out 45km+ with the right projectile and propellant charge. Also air transportable via helicopter. Former Soviet forces have an assortment of light, towable/airliftable artillery. ---
**Author:** ![ramel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ramel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ramel)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/13 "2010-07-12T08:57:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Actually, I’d be surprised if many armies used modern lightweight artillery like the M119 - rapid airnborne deployment is something the U.S. military places special emphasis on, much more than any other nation. > > Now, if you said M109, I’d agree. Self-propelled artillery is pretty ubiquitous. The M119 is the US name for the L118 If you go here > **[L118 light gun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L118_Light_Gun)** > > The L118 light gun is a 105 mm towed howitzer. It was originally designed and produced in the United Kingdom for the British Army in the 1970s. It has since been widely exported. The L119 and the United States Army's M119 are variants that use a different type of ammunition. > The L118 uses separate-loading cased-charge ammunition – the projectile is loaded into the gun and rammed by hand, then the cartridge with propellant is loaded behind it. The L119 and M119 use "semi-fixed" ammunition – when ... You can see a list of nations which use it and how many they have. That’s just one type of towed artillery. There are many others such as > **[122 mm howitzer 2A18 (D-30)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_2A18_%28D-30%29)** > > The 122-mm howitzer D-30 (GRAU index 2A18) is a Soviet howitzer that first entered service in 1960. It is a robust piece that focuses on the essential features of a towed field gun suitable for all conditions. The D-30 has a maximum range of 15.3 km (9.5 mi) or 21.9 km (13.6 mi) using rocket-assisted projectile ammunition. > With its three-leg mounting, the D-30 can be rapidly traversed through 360 degrees. Although no longer manufactured in the countries of the former Soviet Union, the D-30 is st... > **[Type 66 howitzer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_66_gun-howitzer)** > > The Type 66 is a 152 mm towed howitzer used by the People's Liberation Army of China. The gun system is developed from the Soviet D-20 towed artillery. In addition to conventional shells the gun is capable of firing Type MP-152 rocket-assisted projectiles. In some cases a gun-shield is fitted but this is not universal. > The Type 66 152 mm (6.0 in) gun-howitzer is a Chinese copy of the Soviet D-20 gun-howitzer built by Norinco, with a few minor differences in appearance. It has a distinctive thi... > **[152 mm gun-howitzer D-20](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/152_mm_towed_gun-howitzer_M1955_%28D-20%29)** > > The 152 mm gun-howitzer M1955, also known as the D-20, (Russian: 152-мм пушка-гаубица Д-20 обр. 1955 г.) is a manually loaded, towed 152 mm gun-howitzer artillery piece, manufactured in the Soviet Union during the 1950s. It was first observed by the West in 1955, at which time it was designated the M1955. Its GRAU index is 52-P-546. > 152 mm has been a Russian caliber since World War I, when Britain supplied 6-inch howitzers and Russia purchased 152 mm guns from Schneider (probably derived from ... > **[FH70](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FH-70)** > > The FH70 (field howitzer for the 1970s) is a towed 155 mm howitzer used by several nations. > In 1963, NATO agreed a NATO Basic Military Requirement 39 for close support artillery, either towed or tracked. Subsequently, Germany and UK started discussions and design studies and in 1968 established agreed operational characteristics for a towed 155 mm close support gun. Italy became a party to the agreement in 1970. > Key requirements were: If you look at the bottoms of those articles, you can see that towed artillery is still very common, even in 1st world militaries. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/14 "2010-07-12T08:59:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > \*\*Ionizer \*\* > > But also expensive, compared to a field gun towed behind a truck. Why is self-propelled artillery significantly more expensive than towed artillery + trucks? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/15 "2010-07-12T09:58:46Z")
\*\*ramel \*\*- I was sure towed artillery was obsolete in modern militaries. I stand corrected. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Why is self-propelled artillery significantly more expensive than towed artillery + trucks? Because the chassis, turret system and armor are a lot more expensive than a couple of wheels and a truck. Also, modern self-propelled guns tend to have very advanced computerized targeting systems, which may not be transferable to towed pieces. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/16 "2010-07-12T14:37:50Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Why is self-propelled artillery significantly more expensive than towed artillery + trucks? Because then you’re buying two motorized vehicles instead of one, I guess. (You still need the truck for other things, presumably.) ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/17 "2010-07-12T14:47:08Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Lock ‘N’ Load](http://www.casttv.com/shows/lock-n-load/artillery/wd79z11) with R. Lee Ermey. That’s the one. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/18 "2010-07-12T14:58:09Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Lock ‘N’ Load](http://www.casttv.com/shows/lock-n-load/artillery/wd79z11) with R. Lee Ermey. That site seems to be too bandwidth-limited to stream properly. It was pausing every 5 seconds or so. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/19 "2010-07-12T15:13:36Z")
Self-propelled guns can also fire/move/fire _much_ faster than towed ones. SP guns are usually mounted between two ‘tracks’ (like a tank’s) and to fire, only have to drop the ‘shovel’ in the back into ground to stabilize for recoil. The ‘shovel’ (not right term, iirc) is similar to a bulldozer blade that is pushed into the ground to help keep the recoil’s power from pushing backwards and putting lots of strain into the tracks and other ‘driving hardware’. Towed guns have these ‘shovels’ on them as well (usually - bigger bore guns for sure), but it takes longer to spread the two individual smaller shovels apart wide and hammer them into the soil, then undo them and bring back to center when time to go elsewhere. [This](http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot-restricted/tanks/tanks-se-sz/soviet_2s7_pion_self_propelled_artillery-31026.jpg) pic shows the shovel-thing at rear of a Soviet self-prop gun to illustrate what I am trying to describe - American guns are very similar. I have seen self-prop guns that even have super-thick armor ‘box’ around area where driver/troops are. Almost like a tank, but with _huge_ tube coming out the front and no turret - just a big box over back-half of vehicle. There were/are also systems to auto-load such behemoths (remote control, so to speak), but I am not sure if these ever went full issue (mass produced). They are heavy beyond belief and seemed to have mechanical probs constantly (or so I heard from a person who ran one at Ft Sill, usually just to bring out for the displays by HQ now and then). The ones I saw were like [this](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/plz45-155sp-1.jpg), but bigger/taller in the ‘boxed’ area. Probably obsolete nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292/20 "2010-07-12T15:25:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > \*\*ramel \*\*- I was sure towed artillery was obsolete in modern militaries. I stand corrected. > > Because the chassis, turret system and armor are a lot more expensive than a couple of wheels and a truck. Also, modern self-propelled guns tend to have very advanced computerized targeting systems, which may not be transferable to towed pieces. The targeting system is pretty much the same. Projectiles, propellant charges, fuzes, and primers are identical for the 155mm US systems whether M109 SP or M198/M777 towed howitzer. The is some difference in recoil length of the system and barrel length can be different among different models. The computer takes this into account. Also influencing accuracy are tube temperature (how many rounds in immediate past) and barrel wear. The towed howitzers are air mobile, expecially desireable in areas like Afghanistan where roads are too narrow or won’t support the weight of a SP howitzer. Dropping a couple of 155mm guns on a mountain top gives a commanding position for supporting troops in a 45km radius with artillery fire. I believe the Dutch did/do use their SP howitzers in Afghanistan though. With the towed howitzer, pretty much any vehicle can tow the gun. If a Self-propelled howitzer’s engine or other mechanicals go down, it’s stuck in that spot until support can change out a powerpack or a heavy flatbed can be brought around to recover the vehicle. Some of the towed howitzers have their own propulsion and can move short distances at low speed on level ground by themselves. An example is the G5 towed gun from South Africa. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-cannons-still-used-in-combat/546292.md?page=2)