Are carnivorous beasts people too?

Aside from the "maternal glow this piece made me think pseudoscience:

So she tries to make the point by picking one predator that happens to be an omnivore while ignoring animals that are obligate carnivores like the common house cat. She clearly hasn’t spent much time around cats if she thinks they “kill parsimoniously” or only out of “essential need.” Kill with zeal,abandon the corpse, and then head indoors to the filled food dish to eat.

You’d think the theory should at least try to address such a common observation about one of the most popular pets… well if it’s not just feel good, pseudo-science.

??? Dogs do think very much like humans, and you can demonstrate this via behavioral testing. Dogs are social animals, and have many behavioral traits in common with people, including psychological traits of defensiveness, embarrassment, shyness, humor, love, and loyalty.

Many social mammals have some of these traits. Dogs are particularly highly adept at them. (Elephants, too.)

This isn’t just anthropomorphizing: this is stuff that can be demonstrated experimentally. (Also anyone who keeps company with a dog is fully well aware of it.)

Your reasoning breaks down badly: it doesn’t take “parallel evolution” for dogs to have characteristics in common with humans, any more than it should strain your credulity that we and dogs have hierarchical social structures, vocalize to convey emotions, rescue others of our kind who are in trouble, develop strong parental bonds with our young, etc.

Neil deGrassse Tyson wants a word with you.

My reasoning is perfectly sound. Let’s look at another type of paralel evolution–birds, bats, and Banguela all have wings constructed from their forelimbs and “hands.” But even though all work for flying, none are built quite the same way as each other, and the common ancestor of the three did not have wings at all.

Now think about the common ancestor of humans and dogs. As I posted earlier, to reach that ancestor, you have to go back nearly 100 million years to the base of a clade that has been named “Boreoeutheria.” If you look at the daughter groups of that clade, you will see that many of them are communal species and many “lone wolf” (so to speak) individuals. That common ancestor would have been tiny, vaguely shrew-like, and with a brain probably smaller than the end joint of one of your fingers. We can’t say for sure that that ancestor didn’t live “in packs”, but it is probably more likely that they didn’t–mammals that small need to be moving around and eating pretty much constantly to support their metabolisms thanks to the square/cube law and aren’t likely to be too keen on sharing.

Even when you look at clade levels closer to dogs, such as Ferae, you get a mix of pack animals and “lone wolf” species. And even within Carnivoria. And even within Caniformia. Pack behavior in modern canids is therefore a much more recently evolved trait.

It absolutely, positively, definitely, unequivocally requires parallel evolution for humans and dogs to react in similar ways to similar situations. And like with wing evolution, their brains would have evolved to reach those similar situations in similar but not exactly the same ways. Similar solutions to similar problems.

And even that shrew-like creature still had a brain far more complicated than that of any reptile, amphibian, or fish, and very different from any bird. It also had at least some degree of social instincts, because no mammal is completely without those: At the very least, we all have an instinct to care for our young. Plus, of course, a lot of our emotional repertoire is essentially independent of our social nature.

I agree with all mammals having social instincts. But for “lone wolf” mammals, those social instincts at most basic involve the female feeding/caring for their offspring until they are old enough to take care of themselves, then chasing them off never to see them again. Otherwise they live alone and fight off any other members of their species that wander into their territory (or have sex with them, then run them off, if the circumstances are right.) Primates and canids evolved their social “pack animal” instincts and hierarchy separately from (and millions of years apart from) each other, so necessarily will not “think” the same way even if they show similar behaviors. Back to the **Boreoeutheria cladogram, humans and **hedgehogs, humans and pangolins, and humans and vampire bats have roughly the same degree of temporal separation as humans and dogs, but nobody is claiming that hedgehogs, pangolins, and vampire bats think like humans.

Shrug. Okay, we enjoy parallel evolution. Humans and canines probably did not evolve from a common ancestor that was a social animal, but both humans and canines are social animals.

Same for humans and elephants, and humans and dolphins.

The fact is that the social structure of these animals’ behavior has caused the rise of behaviors that bear a strong resemblance to each other. We can watch elephants grieve, and dogs exhibit jealousy.

(Note: we can watch these things. They are behaviors. They do not require projection, and they can be tested scientifically.)

Meanwhile, if you still disagree, play with a dog for a while. (Part sarcasm, and part serious suggestion. Make some primary observations yourself, in the “Jearl Walker” mode of amateur science.)

There’s a comedian, Adam Hills, who has a prosthetic leg. He’s got a bit about how he says “Ow!” whenever he stubs his toe, even if it’s the toe on his fake leg.

Actually, I’m gonna retract what I just said: of course there were social mammals as common ancestors of humans, elephants, dogs, and dolphins. Derp! The earliest mammals had figured out social living arrangements.

Not “parallel evolution” at all, but a common inheritance.

I apologize; I’m not a trained biologist, just read a lot of Stephen Jay Gould.

Cite?

An article from Wired about the origin of sociality in primates:

*Given the modern distribution of social organizations, the most likely time for this shift was around 52 million years ago, when the ancestors of monkeys and apes split off from the ancestors of lemurs and other prosimian primates. *Shultz suspects that, at this time, the nocturnal ancestors of today’s primates became more active during the day. It’s easier to sneak around at night when you’re alone, she notes, but when you start hunting during the day, when predators can more easily spot you, there’s safety in numbers.

Here’s one that popped up in a Google search.

We think social behavior is hard-coded, but I have my doubts. There are some animals for which it would actually be a problem – bears, tasmanian devils, libertarians, to name a few – because a given range may simply not support them, because they are dicks, or for some other reason. But a large number of animals seem to show some degree of adaptability and can transition from solitary to social or the other way, if it proves advantageous to their survival.

Which is to say, in my opinion, whatever that is worth, some part of social behavior is probably hard-coded, but some part is also learned or established by environment.

I’ve got an anecdote that’s worth very little, because, y’know, anecdote… But…

I was listening to a lecture at the Los Angeles Zoo, and the lecturer was talking about the south-western U.S. Mountain Lion, and how solitary it was. He said that it was thought, for a long time, that the cat was solitary by nature.

Then they got a bunch of them together at the zoo, and they got along just fine, building social groups, and becoming a big happy family.

They were solitary, in the wild, because they were so big, they needed a large hunting range. The lecturer said that, in all probability, they were terribly lonely!

Well, in theory they could live like lions and form prides and hunt sheep, goats, etc. In reality, I suspect that cougars are able to adjust to social living but aren’t necessarily social by nature nor do they prefer it.

Domesticated cats are able to live in groups but their ancestor, the African wildcat, is a solitary creature and only tolerates other cats during mating. It seems more likely that domesticated cats are adjusting and making due than that African wildcats are desperately lonely. Of course, even that is a weighted example since the act of domesticating cats means that select specimens were chosen for their tolerance of people and other animals.

Actually, I saw that link, too. Note the age of the fossil is 64 million years and the estimated age of the last ancestor between dogs and humans is around 100 million years. That would be a big gap even if the fossil was in the clade in question. But the fossil in the article is in the clade metatheria while humans and dogs are in eutheria. Picking Didelphis virginiana (the Virginia Opossum) and *Homo sapiens *as the two examples, the last common ancestor between humans, dogs, and the fossil in that article link is around 160 million years., so it really says nothing about the primitive state of the last common ancestor of humans, elephants, dogs, and dolphins.

Also, you are cherry-picking by choosing 4 social animals as your example. The last common ancestor of humans, elephants, and dolphins is also the last common ancestor between the non-social pangolins, solenodons, colugos, and skunks. That is also cherry-picking. Boreoeutheria has a diverse mix of social and non-social species at essentially every taxonomic level, so it doesn’t really say anything about the last common ancestor. So we have to guess what the habits of the LCA would be based on similar organisms around today. And since the LCA was likely a tiny nocturnal insectivore, and tiny nocturnal insectivores today are mostly solitary, then the best guess is that the LCA was solitary. If you are going to imagine the LCA of humans, elephants, dogs, dolphins, pangolins, solenodons, colungos, and skunks, you are going to be much closer imagining something like a solenodon than any of the others (though even that won’t be a particularly close match.)

Sorry I picked a bad example…

But, dude, serious bullshit on cherry picking. We’re talking about social animals: I get to point to four of the most significantly social animals among the mammals. I can point to more! Almost all of the ruminants display significant social behaviors. A great many of the rodents display social behaviors. Naked Mole Rats, guy!

Are you seriously trying to argue that all of these similarities are “parallel evolution?”

Your position is just weird, and doubly weird to people who actually know dogs as individuals and friends.

Here’s the thing.

When we look at our very close evolutionary relatives, we don’t see the same social behaviors. Humans, chimps, bonobos, gorillas, orangutans and the various species of gibbons all have very different social systems and interact with each other very differently.

Humans and wolves have more similar social structures than humans do with gibbons, or wolves with foxes. That’s why humans and dogs get along so well. But it’s not because we inherited our shared social systems from a common ancestor 100 million years ago. It’s because we both independently evolved those systems very recently, within the last 10 million years. Otherwise, foxes would have the same social system as wolves.

It’s a simple fact that some animals are solitary, and some are social, even between very closely related species.

Of course all mammals have some social behaviors, mothers usually don’t attack their babies, littermates usually don’t attack each other, mating pairs usually don’t attack each other. And so the elaborate social behaviors of various mammal species grow out of that foundation. Or they don’t, and the species is solitary. Or the species has complex facultative social behaviors whereby they are sometimes solitary and sometimes social.

And this is obviously how closely related species can be either social or solitary, and evolve different systems quickly, by elaborating or suppressing the common mammalian social heritage.

But just because humans and wolves have similar social systems doesn’t mean wolves are just people with four legs and fur. They’re not, any more than humans are just naked wolves that walk on two legs. There are two traps here, one is not recognizing the commonality between humans and other organisms, and the other is not recognizing the differences between them.

Both are wrong. Every species is different, and every individual of that species is (sometimes very slightly) different. It’s mostly wrong to imagine that most animals act consciously. It can be very easy to show the limitations of some animals behavior systems by introducing a stimulus that produces the wrong behavior.

Stick a chicken’s head under its wing and the chicken goes to sleep. Put a popsicle stick with a red dot into a gull’s nest, and the chicks peck at it even though the stick looks nothing like their parent’s beak. Put a picture of a naked woman in front of a human male and he might get sexually aroused, even though there is no actual naked woman.

The thing is, most animals don’t have the brain structures that enable conscious thought that humans do. But what that shows is not that animals are automatons, but rather than conscious thought plays a much smaller part in human behavior than we humans think it does. A human and a dog can react pretty much the same way to the same stimuli, but the dog just does it and doesn’t think about it. The human might think about it, but they just do it anyway. The thinking is secondary to the action in many cases. How many people do you know who are trying to lose weight? It’s a very simple equation, to lose weight you just have to eat less. So why can’t they lose weight? Their conscious mind just has to direct the body, and it will happen.

Except that’s not what happens. You find yourself eating that carton of ice cream at 1 AM even though your conscious brain doesn’t want to.

Another example is the ability of people to accomplish tasks without really thinking about them. The classic example is driving home from work and you kind of zone out and find yourself at home without really remembering driving home. Your conscious mind takes a back seat and your non-conscious behavior takes over. And this is what a dog’s life is like all the time. The dog reacts in complex and usually appropriate ways to its environment, in the same way a human does, it just doesn’t think about what it’s done.

Obviously thinking about things lets humans have some incredibly elaborate behaviors that dogs or chimps simply can’t do. You can’t teach a chimp to write Powershell batch files. On the other hand, it’s pretty hard to teach most humans.

The point is, human consciousness is an extra layer on top of the more ancestral mammalian brain. Other mammals have similar sorts of brain structures, but in most it’s really small, in some species it’s pretty elaborate, but in humans it’s crazily elaborate. Our consciousness isn’t something unique to humans, but our crazily elaborated consciousness is. Just like a giraffe’s neck is derived from an ancestral condition of having a normal neck like an okapi, but the giraffe’s neck is crazily elaborated compared to other mammals. On the one hand, it’s just a neck like all other mammals have. On the other hand, it’s way different because it’s much much larger than similar animal necks.

It is cherry-picking, and I can point to more examples of solitary animals. In fact, I can quote myself:

Even when you look at clade levels closer to dogs, such as Ferae, you get a mix of pack animals and “lone wolf” species. And even within Carnivoria. And even within Caniformia. Pack behavior in modern canids is therefore a much more recently evolved trait.

Actually go to those links, read them, and study the cladograms.

Technically, convergent evolution, not parallel, and I don’t give any fraction of a rat’s ass about the emotional anecdotes of dog fans in face of scientific evidence.

This makes me think of my cats (I’m not a dog person.) They love peanut butter–I rub a fingertip covered with peanut butter on something and they will eagerly lick it off. Sometimes I rub the peanut butter on a spot of their fir. They are eager to get it, but will sniff themselves all over before eventually finding the peanut butter. If there was much thought going on there, you would expect them to realize that the location of the peanut butter is going to be the place that I just touched. (And if I dab a small bit between their eyes and nose, they will search all around them before finding it instead of thinking “wait, I was just touched here, so it might be in that spot.”)

As for an earlier mention of elephants grieving, that may be so, but the Wikipedia entry on elephant cognition linked to an interesting study (PDF) suggesting that there isn’t much thought going on.

Or smoking when you are trying to quit. Or drinking when you are trying to quit. Or flipping the light switch when you enter a room when you know that the storm has just knocked off your electricity. Or having to check one more time that you’ve locked the doors, set the alarm, turned off the stove, etc., when you’ve just done it moments ago…