# Are Catholics Christian, Part Two **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 2, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687 "2010-12-02T18:02:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/21 "2010-12-03T03:46:18Z")
> [@GiantRat](#): > > Ask yourself one question: “which was the first Christian Church?” You’d probably have to fight with the Orthodox on that one. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/22 "2010-12-03T08:08:05Z")
> [@Ann\_Onimous](#): > > Agreed. I know most Southern Baptists do not consider LDS Christians. I mean, there was a huge evangelism push in Utah by the SBC at one point. But most I know do consider Catholics to be Christians. I know quite a few who do not. I went to a mass at college just as a learning experience. When I told some Baptist friends, they acted the same as if I’d told them I went to a strip bar. I also remember getting into theological arguments about whether Catholics were saved. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/23 "2010-12-03T08:34:18Z")
> [@VernWinterbottom](#): > > Right. They were _THE_ Christians, as in the ones being thrown to the lions and such. Nearly all non-Catholic Christians are some variety of Protestant, which came later. Those weren’t “Catholics” as we have understood the term in recent centuries. The union and codification of theology and earthly institution didn’t happen until Christianity was accepted by Romans. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/24 "2010-12-03T08:37:31Z")
I was raised non-denominational, and grew up believing that certain Christian denominations weren’t “true Christians,” that they believed they were, but were sadly misguided and we should pray for them. Baptists were Ok, some (but not all) Methodists were fine, Catholics and Lutherans were sadly misguided by the rituals of their church, etc. Eventually I grew up and realized that I had been raised with a narrow viewpoint and adopted a much more “live and let live” attutude regard religious labels. My mom became more open minded, too, but still was quite worried when I told her I was joining the Catholic church and raising my son Catholic. I think I may have managed to convince her we’re doing fine. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/25 "2010-12-03T09:25:15Z")
The fourth most populous nation in the world has long maintained that Catholics aren’t Christian! The 1965 Indonesian constitution says: “Agama-agama yang dipeluk oleh penduduk di Indonesia ialah Islam, **Kristen, Katolik,** Hindu, Budha dan Khong Hu Cu (Confusius).” [Bolding mine.] Rough translated, it says that the six recognized religions in Indonesia are Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. This always confused me to no end, but in decades past when I tried to explain to my Indonesian friends that Catholics ARE Christians, they just looked at me blankly. Interestingly, however, that seems to be changing. When I Googled Indonesia’s religions to find an example to quote showing how “Christianity” and “Catholicism” are separate religions in the Indonesian constitution, I was not readily able to find one. Most sources now describe the six religions as Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Even the Indonesian language Wikipedia now refers to the two religions as “Kristen (Protestan)” and “Kristen (Katolik).” So despite the distinction made in the constitution, as a practical matter Indonesians seem to now recognize that Catholics are Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/26 "2010-12-03T09:44:04Z")
> [@delphica](#): > > I’m not Lutheran or Baptist, so I don’t know if people who are might answer that way, or why or why not. > > This is one of those things where I realize it might sound odd to other people, but it’s fairly typical and not at all odd in the community in which I grew up (working class, Irish-American Catholic). We simply use “Christian” as shorthand for “Protestant” or even “non-denominational Christian.” > > The only example I can think of that might be similar is if you asked someone “Are you American?” and they responded “No, I’m Canadian.” They **might** have answered “Yes, I’m Canadian” because after all, Canada is part of North America, but for right or for wrong, to most people, “American” has come to mean “of the United States.” So “Yes” a right answer, but “No” is probably more in keeping with the context of the conversation and the intent of the asker. But what you’re doing is equivalent to answering “are you American?” with “no, I’m from Texas”. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/27 "2010-12-03T09:53:38Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But what you’re doing is equivalent to answering “are you American?” with “no, I’m from Texas”. No, her analogy is more accurate given the point that she’s making. It depends on the intended meaning of the person asking the question. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/28 "2010-12-03T13:33:46Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Those weren’t “Catholics” as we have understood the term in recent centuries. The union and codification of theology and earthly institution didn’t happen until Christianity was accepted by Romans. True, but that still happened before any of the other denominations split off. While there were other sects of Christianity that came before, they either merged with the Catholic church, or died out completely. For a period of time, Catholic and Christian were synonymous. Every denomination in existence today can trace its roots back to Catholicism. Except maybe the LDS, if you go by their origin story, and the various quasi-Christian cults that have arisen and fallen in the past. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/29 "2010-12-03T13:40:11Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > This was discussed in a recent thread: [What Christian denominations consider Mormons as Christians too?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12459027#post12459027) It seemed to me that you’d have to be pretty narrow in your definition of Christianity to exclude people whose beliefs focus on the life, teachings, divinity, and resurrection of Jesus and who believe that he is the saviour of our immortal souls. Anyone who believes that stuff should have the right to call himself a Christian. Do you know what the LDS belief is about God the Father? That is the major difference from traditional Christianity, even traditional Theism. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/30 "2010-12-03T14:03:20Z")
I think the OP is a misreading of the article in _The Washington Post_. I remember reading it and not noticing any such point being made. I don’t think that Blake Gopnik was claiming that Catholics weren’t Christian. I think that he was probably saying that, besides the Evangelical Protestant groups that were complaining about the exhibit, there were also Catholic groups complaining about it. I suspect that a word or two got carelessly trimmed by the article’s editor. This happens reasonably often. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/31 "2010-12-03T15:34:33Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Do you know what the LDS belief is about God the Father? Yes, I certainly am pretty familiar with LDS beliefs. I doubt you’ll ever find a Mormon who is as familiar with LDS beliefs as an ex-Mormon is. Their beliefs re: the nature of God the Father are pretty compatible with mainstream Christianity. Their beliefs re: the relationship between the Father and Jesus are a little different, but well supported by their understanding of the KJV Bible. And their beliefs re: the history of how God became God are pretty nutty as judged by other Christians. They believe that man can become Perfect even as the Father is Perfect, which implies that God _became_ perfect and that his offspring are essentially an embryonic phase of the same species with potential to develop into Gods. But that is not the main emphasis of their religion. It is mostly about receiving forgiveness from sins via the atonement of Jesus. > [@](#): > > That is the major difference from traditional Christianity, even traditional Theism. So if they are different from traditional Christianity, are they not Christians? And if they are different from traditional Theism, are they not religious? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/32 "2010-12-03T16:02:41Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Yes, I certainly am pretty familiar with LDS beliefs. I doubt you’ll ever find a Mormon who is as familiar with LDS beliefs as an ex-Mormon is. > > Their beliefs re: the nature of God the Father are pretty compatible with mainstream Christianity. Their beliefs re: the relationship between the Father and Jesus are a little different, but well supported by their understanding of the KJV Bible. And their beliefs re: the history of how God became God are pretty nutty as judged by other Christians. They believe that man can become Perfect even as the Father is Perfect, which implies that God _became_ perfect and that his offspring are essentially an embryonic phase of the same species with potential to develop into Gods. But that is not the main emphasis of their religion. It is mostly about receiving forgiveness from sins via the atonement of Jesus. > So if they are different from traditional Christianity, are they not Christians? And if they are different from traditional Theism, are they not religious? You see, that’s what I cannot understand- the LDS totally turns the idea of an Eternal Immutable Deity on its head & then says “Oh, that’s not the major emphasis in our faith”. I’m sorry- how a religion defines the very essence of the Creator IS a major emphasis whether its adherents want to openly discuss it or underplay it, and IF they want to underplay it, then it is perfectly natural to ask ‘Why?’. On the question “are Mormons Christians?”, btw- my response is “Depends on the individuals & their understanding on the nature of God & Jesus, but LDS Theology is not consistent with Biblical Christianity.” Oh, and of course difference with traditional Theism does not make one non-religious. Hinduism & Buddhism are totally at odds with traditional Theism & are still major religions. ---
**Author:** ![boardready](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@boardready](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boardready)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/33 "2010-12-03T16:21:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Wouldn’t a better answer be, “Yes, I’m Catholic?” How different is your answer from one that went “no, I’m Lutheran,” or “No, I’m Baptist?” Those seem odd, your answer sounds odd also. I agree! The statement of comparing Catholics vs. Christians is like comparing Fruit vs. Apples, in my opinion. Catholics are in fact part of Christianity, the same as Nazarenes are part of Christianity or Methodists are part of Christianity. We all have a different various based on our belief of the bible or based on our “religion”. Christians believe in the Trinity, God the Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit - but the basis of our belief and our responsibility as Christians differ. Unlike being Jewish (who don’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah) or like Mormon’s (who don’t believe in the Trinity and have written their own bible). ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/34 "2010-12-03T17:46:41Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > You see, that’s what I cannot understand- the LDS totally turns the idea of an Eternal Immutable Deity on its head & then says “Oh, that’s not the major emphasis in our faith”. I’m sorry- how a religion defines the very essence of the Creator IS a major emphasis whether its adherents want to openly discuss it or underplay it, and IF they want to underplay it, then it is perfectly natural to ask ‘Why?’. > > On the question “are Mormons Christians?”, btw- my response is “Depends on the individuals & their understanding on the nature of God & Jesus, but LDS Theology is not consistent with Biblical Christianity.” > > Oh, and of course difference with traditional Theism does not make one non-religious. Hinduism & Buddhism are totally at odds with traditional Theism & are still major religions. Sorry to continue this hijack. But my point about the emphasis is that, while you can find all sorts of crazy shit in the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, if you walked into LDS Sunday services this week you would hear stuff much closer to mainstream Christianity. They cherry-pick their doctrines so much that Prophet, Seer, and Revelator Gordon B Hinkley was able to tell Larry King with a straight face that he “doesn’t know” if it was ever taught that God had once been a man, and that they “certainly” don’t emphasize it or teach it today. If you asked whether Mormons were Christians in 1840, my answer might be different (and even Joseph Smith referred to differences between “Mormons and Christians” a few times). But Smith is dead and the leadership for the past 100 years has been doing their best to minimize Smith’s and Young’s weirder doctrines and emphasize more appealing Christian doctrines. Back to the topic of the thread, doesn’t Catholicism have a similar history? Couldn’t someone cherry-pick the decrees of various popes and saints and find lots of stuff that contradicts what the majority of 21st century Christians believe? I would argue that no church today has much in common with the small group of disciples who broke bread with Jesus, but if they believe that they will be saved by their faith in Jesus’s atonement, it’s odd to call them non-Christian. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/35 "2010-12-03T17:55:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Mormon’s (who don’t believe in the Trinity and have written their own bible). > Reply With Quote Mormons do believe in the Trinity (although their conception of it and the three persons differs significantly from most denominations) and they use the King James Bible\*. To an outside observer, their religion seems rooted in American Protestantism, however far it may have moved in many aspects. Not to class them as “Christian” seems perverse. If you were to draw up an evolutionary tree of religions, Mormonism would be branching off of the large trunk of Protestant Christianity. To not call Mormons “Christian” seems like not calling Birds Vertebrates because they aren’t Mammals or Reptiles. If Catholics aren’t Christian, then what about Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox? or Armenian Catholic and Ethiopian Catholic? They’re on the same trunk as Catholic and the various Protestant branches. Then there’s the Jews for Jesus bunch. Asking if _they’re_ “Christian” opens a whole ‘nother can o’ worms. \*Joseph Smith worked on his own edition of the Bible, but it’s not part of the LDS “Triple Testament”. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/36 "2010-12-03T19:43:04Z")
Speaking as an Irish-American New Yorker who went to Catholic schools for 13 years… Before I moved to Texas, if someone had asked me “Are yo ua Christian,” I’d have said “yes” intantly, without hesitation ,and wouldn’t have seen any need to elaborate. It was only after I moved to Texas in 1986 that I learned many fundamentalist Protestant do NOT view Catholics as Christians. That struck me as odd, but I’ve gotten used to it. So, now if someone asked me that same question, I’d probably answer “Yes, I’m a Catholic.” ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687/37 "2010-12-04T00:40:49Z")
> [@GiantRat](#): > > Ask yourself one question: “which was the first Christian Church?” I don’t know, Antiochan Orthodox, maybe? Or the Coptic church? One of the Gnostic sects, I guess, but they’re not around anymore. Certainly the Eastern Orthodox wouldn’t be thrilled to hear that they’re not the oldest church around, given how quickly Christianity spread around the Greek-speaking Eastern Mediterranean. Not to nitpick or anything… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-christian-part-two/562687.md?page=1)