# Are Catholics really Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917 "2001-06-23T23:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3bc359/32.png) [@lenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lenin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/1 "2001-06-23T23:26:37Z")
I seem to recall from somewhere that Christ often preached the values of brotherly love, the non-importance of worldly goods, and of course, “Love thy neighbor.” Given that, how can the Catholic church be considered to be following Christ’s teachings? Look at the inquisition, the crusades, doling out excommunications in the barrel-full, etc. The Catholic church has(in my atheistic view) been a long-standing beacon for intolerance, greed, and corruption… So how can they claim to be Christian? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/2 "2001-06-23T23:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lenin \* > \*\*I seem to recall from somewhere that Christ often preached the values of brotherly love, the non-importance of worldly goods, and of course, “Love thy neighbor.” Given that, how can the Catholic church be considered to be following Christ’s teachings? Look at the inquisition, the crusades, doling out excommunications in the barrel-full, etc. The Catholic church has(in my atheistic view) been a long-standing beacon for intolerance, greed, and corruption… So how can they claim to be Christian? \*\* Ummmm you might want to take a gander [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=67373). Your “argument”, such as it is, has been done before. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/3 "2001-06-23T23:33:25Z")
Because of course there’s no such thing as greedy or hateful Protestants :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/4 "2001-06-24T00:09:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*Because of course there’s no such thing as greedy or hateful Protestants :rolleyes: \*\* The Orthodox spend their lives harvesting gumdrops and giving them to the good boy and girl Mormons. But they can’t go into the cold, dark forest, even though the yummiest gumdrops grow there. No, no, no - that mean old Catholic who lives there will eat them up! Sua ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/5 "2001-06-24T02:37:06Z")
Um, the Inquisition and the Crusades happened hundreds of years ago. Sheesh! That’s like condemning all Germans today for the Nazis, or all Southernors today for slavery. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/6 "2001-06-24T02:43:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Um, the Inquisition and the Crusades happened hundreds of years ago. > > Sheesh! > > That’s like condemning all Germans today for the Nazis, or all Southernors today for slavery. > \*\* shhhh you’ll wake the troll. Actually I did get a chuckle out of the phrase “doling out excommunications in the barrel-full” It has a certain “all your base are belong to us” feel to it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/7 "2001-06-24T02:58:50Z")
Obviously, somebody named “Lenin” is automatically a much closer follower of the teachings of Christ. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/8 "2001-06-24T03:28:09Z")
Are Catholics Christian? Yup. You do not need to follow all Christian teachings to the letter ALL of the time to be one. Romans 3:23 says quite plainly that all have sinned. I will now parody your argument: > [@](#): > > I seem to recall from somewhere that the American laws often preached the values of obeying traffic laws, the importance of waiting until 21 to drink, and of course, “All men are created equal.” Given that, how can many Americans be considered to be following these laws? Look at all these drunk highschoolers, “Manifest Destiny”, doling out traffic tickets by the barrel-full, etc. The American people have (in my Texan view) been a long-standing beacon for decadence, apathy, and ignorance… So how can they claim to be American? If you run a red light, you still are an American citizen. Why have a different criteria for religions? -Soup ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/9 "2001-06-24T03:59:40Z")
Soup, you are my hero du jour. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/10 "2001-06-24T04:07:47Z")
Catholics believe that Jesus was the son of God on Earth. They are christians. In fact, they are the original christians. All Protestants are variations on that theme. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/11 "2001-06-24T04:25:17Z")
It’s rather like a Symphony, no? _Variations on the theme of Christ._ ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/12 "2001-06-24T04:29:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **In fact, they are the original christians.** I’m not sure, but I think the Orthodox might have a bone to pick with you on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/13 "2001-06-24T04:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tenar \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > **In fact, they are the original christians.** > > I’m not sure, but I think the Orthodox might have a bone to pick with you on this one. \*\* Oh, all right. Co-originators. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/14 "2001-06-24T05:36:10Z")
Of course, the first wave of protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglican) persecuted the hell out of the second wave of protestants (Anabaptists, Puritans). Why do you think they came to the new world you silly girl. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/15 "2001-06-24T05:45:53Z")
Someone’s been reading Death Cookie again… ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/16 "2001-06-24T06:49:39Z")
I suspect that the thrust of **lenin** ’s OP was not to bash Catholics, but to point out that the Catholic church is a hypocritial institution: more concerned with protecting its own interests that with the acting in the spirit of Christ’s teachings. That may not be the most original thought in the world, but I don’t think it was meant as a way of kissing up to Protestants, Jews or anyone else. I’m curious: does anyone actually _not_ agree that the Catholic church is a hypocrtical and often un-Christ-like institution? I would add that, insofar as he was a believer in Marx’s philosophy, Lenin (that is Vladmir) was more Christ-like, IMO, than most prominent church officials I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/17 "2001-06-24T06:53:21Z")
Apologies for all those typos in my last. It’s been a long day. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/18 "2001-06-24T12:06:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > \*\*I suspect that the thrust of **lenin** ’s OP was not to bash Catholics, but to point out that the Catholic church is a hypocritial institution: more concerned with protecting its own interests that with the acting in the spirit of Christ’s teachings. That may not be the most original thought in the world, but I don’t think it was meant as a way of kissing up to Protestants, Jews or anyone else. \*\* That’s not the way I read the OP, but even so, the point is what? Catholics do not have a monopoly on hypocrism. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’m curious: does anyone actually _not_ agree that the Catholic church is a hypocrtical and often un-Christ-like institution? \*\* Not any more or any less than any other religion, christian or other wise. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I would add that, insofar as he was a believer in Marx’s philosophy, Lenin (that is Vladmir) was more Christ-like, IMO, than most prominent church officials I know of. \*\* \*\* And Lenin was less christ-like than other church officials. Church officials are human. They are not Christ nor do they claim to be Christ. A good Catholic will try to follow the rules just as any other good christian will. However, I think that **andygirl’s** got it right about the OP. Them there Jack Chick disciples has got the _craziest_ ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/19 "2001-06-24T14:05:34Z")
> [@](#): > > In fact, they are the original christians. All Protestants are variations on that theme. I think you would also have a lot of Protestants disagreeing with this as well. Much of the Reformation was focused on correcting perceived errors that had accumulated in the Roman Catholic church, and returning Christianity to its original roots. The Protestant churches broke with the organizational and doctrinal authority of the Roman Catholic church, but that’s not like saying they were completely new clubs that just popped up overnight. There was substantial historical continuity in the Christian communities that accepted the Reformation. For example, the Church of England traces its roots back to the middle of the first Millenium, with the arrival of missionaries from Rome and Ireland. Subsequent changes are part of the organic growth that can occur in any dynamic institution. However, Anglicans do not consider themselves part of a church that began in the 16th century - the church’s doctrine is that Anglicans are part of the catholic church, as set out in the Nicene Creed, and the equal inheritors of the Christian tradition. I not as familiar with other branches of Protestantism, but I would assume you would get similar reactions from Presbyterians, Lutherans and others. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2001, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917/20 "2001-06-24T15:22:59Z")
Mandelstam: Yeah, of course Lenin was pretty Christlike! After all, we know that Christ sent the reactionaries to the Gulag, liquidated whole families, and used starvation, mass-murder, and torture in order to establish a totalitarian government. Yep, I’m convinced. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-catholics-really-christian/69917.md?page=2)