# Are certain actions worse than suicide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748 "2010-10-01T17:12:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/21 "2010-10-01T22:39:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > “[…] Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. […]” - G. K. Chesterton, in _[The Flag of the World](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.viii.html)_ That’s one perspective. However, it sounds disjoint from fact and reason to me - suicide does _not_ kill all men, wipe out the world, destroy all buildings, etc. Are you floating the notion that the shrink is spouting insanities from ideologies? In that case he _would_ would be polluting his practice with his personal perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/22 "2010-10-01T22:47:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you floating the notion that the shrink is spouting insanities from ideologies? In that case he _would_ would be polluting his practice with his personal perspective. He’s an enthusiastic Christian, I expect he’s pushing the old idea that suicide is Evil. They don’t like losing followers who become suicidally depressed from the misery Christianity inflicts, so they tell the same people they inflict guilt and self hatred and misery on that they have a duty to stay alive and suffer. It’s one of the many things that makes Christianity such a vile institution. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/23 "2010-10-02T01:14:38Z")
There are many different kinds of suicide, for many different reasons, some of which are morally superior to any alternative. The shrink in the OP is an ass. It’s his job to dissuade his patients from suicidal thoughts, but his attitude is indefensible when referring to sane people who are not experiencing a crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/24 "2010-10-02T03:32:44Z")
I think the psych just expressed it in a poor manner. I’m guessing what he meant was that there is anything you do while living is less harmful to yourself than suicide. Which I think is true. But you have the capacity to hurt other people and the amount of harm you do to them can easily outweigh the harm you do to yourself by committing suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/25 "2010-10-05T21:58:40Z")
I think the therapist might have been rejecting a false dilemma. It isn’t often going to be the case that somebody’s only choices are suicide or prostituting children. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/26 "2010-10-06T02:21:37Z")
Someone should kill himself only in what I call a “Rommel” situation where as in Field Marshal Rommel’s case your whole family was threatened if you didn’t kill yourself-in other words it isn’t really suicide but rather sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/27 "2010-10-06T03:28:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Someone should kill himself only in what I call a “Rommel” situation where as in Field Marshal Rommel’s case your whole family was threatened if you didn’t kill yourself-in other words it isn’t really suicide but rather sacrifice. Why would it be wrong to kill yourself instead of suffering a terminal illness? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/28 "2010-10-06T11:05:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I would say any of the, uhm, lifestyles you mentioned would hold out the hope that those activities could be contained (perhaps with jail) and then mitigated (though lots of therapy). At least it’s good for his business. > > Just like my grandpa used to say, just because someone dabbles in serial killing as a youngster doesn’t mean they ALWAYS have to be a serial killer. If you are a [suicider,](http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_teresa_s_071109_what_a_craven_way_to.htm) you will forever remain suicided. Yeah, the one way in which suicide is worse than those things is that it’s the end of hope, things can’t get better once you’re dead. It’s the reason why the RCC used to consider it the only unforgivable sin, that it was the denial of hope and the one sin from which you didn’t have time to repent (there has always been a school of thought which asked “what if you have time to repent while you’re hanging from the noose?”). That doesn’t mean the other things are good, or that they hurt less people or cause less total pain. Several of the things the OP asked may cause more pain than a suicide, and by that measuring stick, that would make them worse. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/29 "2010-10-06T11:09:11Z")
“Selfishness” is the worst objection that I’ve heard in regards to suicide. “Think what it will do to your family?” “Your poor parents!” “Think of the suffering you will cause!” Yes, all those things will certainly happen and that’s why I don’t think I would go over the brink (although I have played on the edge). However, except for dependent children you bring into the world, I believe you have no obligation to keep living for the happiness of someone else, to the exclusion of your own pain and suffering. For instance, I look at my parents. I do not see them as “living for me”–never have, actually. They’re obese, don’t take care of themselves, don’t exercise, don’t watch their sugar or cholesterol, and spend much of their time thinking about bills, frivalivous consumer shopping, gauche forms of entertainment, and church. Both are destined to premature deaths or achingly slow, hellishly miserable ones. Now, if I were feeling particularly suicidal and someone told me to think about how much harm my death would cause my parents, I would rejoin with, “Why should I care, when it’s obvious _they_ don’t care about how their deaths will affect me? Is a preventable, unintentional suicide any more moral than one done deliberately?” Actually, this isn’t hypothetical. My therapist asked me this question and I gave her this response. She had absolutely nothing to say to it, other than, “Well, what about everyone else?” Yes, what about everyone else? I would like to think that although a family member’s suicide would hurt me tremenduously, I wouldn’t begrudge them their right to “escape” whatever hell they were going through, especially if I could empathize with their hell. It’s selfish to demand someone to keep living “just for you”. What if _you_ (not speaking to anyone in particular here) are part of the problem? People don’t ponder this question at all, because most people cannot fathom the serious contemplation of suicide and the reasons behind it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/30 "2010-10-06T12:55:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He’s an enthusiastic Christian, I expect he’s pushing the old idea that suicide is Evil. They don’t like losing followers who become suicidally depressed from the misery Christianity inflicts, so they tell the same people they inflict guilt and self hatred and misery on that they have a duty to stay alive and suffer. It’s one of the many things that makes Christianity such a vile institution. I think that you’re making up everything in this post. Please provide a cite to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/31 "2010-10-06T13:06:12Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > > “[…] Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. […]” - G. K. Chesterton, in _[The Flag of the World](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.viii.html)_ > > That’s one perspective. However, it sounds disjoint from fact and reason to me - suicide does _not_ kill all men, wipe out the world, destroy all buildings, etc. But of course that depends on whether you’re looking at it from the point of view of the suicider or of the rest of the world. Judged morally or ethically or from the point of view of its effect on the rest of the world, **of course** there are actions worse than suicide. Judged from the point of view of its effect on the person’s own psyche, which is probably the view the shrink was taking since that’s his area of professional concern, suicide is the one act it’s impossible to recover from ( at least unless you posit some sort of purgatorial afterlife). “Where there’s life, there’s hope.” ---
**Author:** ![Isabel8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/48db29/32.png) [@Isabel8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabel8)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/32 "2010-10-06T16:54:17Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > My thoughts on suicide are…evolving. I still maintain that suicide is the ultimate right of the individual, but a friend of mine exercised that right earlier this year. The collateral damage from his act is enormous. His grandmother, who found the body, is now in a mental institution. His mother had been clean for years…now she’s relapsed in a major way. His uncle, who is and has been my best friend for 25 years, and helped raise the child after his worthless father disappeared, is devastated. I don’t want to be mad at my friend…or at the memory of my friend, since that’s all I have left, but I am mad at him. He caused all this pain for so many people…all because he couldn’t man up and handle his own problems, and he wouldn’t take his meds or otherwise follow the instructions of the professionals that tried to save him. Yes, he had the right to end his life…but I wish he hadn’t. Also wish he’d given more thought to how his choice was going to affect other people. Suicide can certainly have horrible consequences for the survivors, but I think the blame for that falls as much on society’s taboo against suicide, and those who propagate it, as it does on the person who committed the act. By taboo, I mean the very common idea that a person who chooses to end their life is necessarily mentally ill, irrational, impulsive and not responsible for their actions. When people talk about about how a loved one’s suicide has affected them, they generally express, in addition to grief, emotions such as surprise, wonder about the person’s motives, and guilt that they may have failed the person somehow. The way I see it, these emotions (aside from the actual grief) are a direct result of the taboo against suicide. Someone contemplating suicide, who is serious about it, cannot breathe a single word about it to anyone, for fear of being locked up and forcibly preventing from carrying out their plans. They can’t prepare their loved ones, explain their reasons, reassure them and say goodbye. Because of the taboo, suicide is necessarily a sudden, unexpected death, rather than an anticipated, planned-for one, and the effects on survivors are accordingly worse. ---
**Author:** ![Dennis3240](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@Dennis3240](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dennis3240)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/33 "2010-10-10T21:57:36Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > > > So I was talking to a shrink who informed me that “Any way of living your life is better than suicide.” > > > > When I recovered from his statement, I asked: > > > > You mean like selling drugs to elementary students? > > Yes. > > > > Prostituting elementary school students? > > Yes. > > > > Serial killing and mass murdering? > > Yes. > > > > _ **What’s your take on this?** _ > > Get a different fucking shrink, and give your current one a good swift kick in the balls from me on your way out the door. > > There is no way in any form of hell ever imagined by man that hurting others is more acceptable than hurting yourself. > > The people you hurt probably want no part of your fucked up insanity; what you do to yourself is your own goddamned business. Annie-Xmas please don’t do anything to hurt yourself!!! Life sucks but it always get’s better, it always does trust me. That said this shrink sounds like a total idiot. Assuming this shrink is married and has kids if I sold drugs to his kids, raped tortured and murdered his wife and all his children I wonder what his answer would be then??? Hey doc are you still happy I didn’t off myself??? What a dipshit. I do not condone suicide but there are definately things that are worth than death. If anyone is in need of psychiatric care please get a qualified shrink because this gentleman sounds like a complete idiot. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/34 "2010-10-12T05:05:07Z")
The Judeo-Christian ethic does make it makes sense, though. Assuming suicide is sinful, a successful suicide is a one-way trip to hell. Everything else can be forgiven with a quick prayer, but not that. Also, it seems like you guys can’t process the idea that truth is not some universal ethic that must be upheld. Why couldn’t the therapist be lying? Why couldn’t the therapist know that acquiescing to the statement would lead down the path of the patient thinking they know better than the therapist, which, in depression where a lot of thoughts are messed up, that could be very dangerous?f And, anyways, if you are actually discussing suicide, chances are you’re pretty bad off. Getting a new doctor and having to reestablish that therapist-patient relationship (which can take upwards fo 6 months) might be too dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/35 "2010-10-12T13:57:43Z")
> [@Dennis3240](#): > > > [@ExTank](#): > > > > Get a different fucking shrink, and give your current one a good swift kick in the balls from me on your way out the door. > > > > There is no way in any form of hell ever imagined by man that hurting others is more acceptable than hurting yourself. > > > > The people you hurt probably want no part of your fucked up insanity; what you do to yourself is your own goddamned business. > > Annie-Xmas please don’t do anything to hurt yourself!!! Life sucks but it always get’s better, it always does trust me. That said this shrink sounds like a total idiot. Assuming this shrink is married and has kids if I sold drugs to his kids, raped tortured and murdered his wife and all his children I wonder what his answer would be then??? Hey doc are you still happy I didn’t off myself??? What a dipshit. I do not condone suicide but there are definately things that are worth than death. If anyone is in need of psychiatric care please get a qualified shrink because this gentleman sounds like a complete idiot. Whoa up people. I was talking to this idiot in a non-professional setting. He also told me that I would probably be helped by anti-psychotic medication, despite my pastpill addiction and my absolute horror of the slightest chance of future addictionto anything. Thank you for your concern, but I am not planning to off myself. For all I know, tomorrow could be the best day of my entire life! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/36 "2010-10-13T00:15:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > Are you floating the notion that the shrink is spouting insanities from ideologies? In that case he _would_ would be polluting his practice with his personal perspective. > > He’s an enthusiastic Christian, I expect he’s pushing the old idea that suicide is Evil. They don’t like losing followers who become suicidally depressed from the misery Christianity inflicts, so they tell the same people they inflict guilt and self hatred and misery on that they have a duty to stay alive and suffer. It’s one of the many things that makes Christianity such a vile institution. Waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute. Are you among **Annie-Xmas** ’s inner circle? How do you know anything of the religious predilections of her mental health care team members? ETA: or of the mental health professionals within her social circle? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/37 "2010-10-13T02:09:48Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > He’s an enthusiastic Christian, I expect he’s pushing the old idea that suicide is Evil. They don’t like losing followers who become suicidally depressed from the misery Christianity inflicts, so they tell the same people they inflict guilt and self hatred and misery on that they have a duty to stay alive and suffer. It’s one of the many things that makes Christianity such a vile institution. > > Waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute. > > Are you among **Annie-Xmas** ’s inner circle? How do you know anything of the religious predilections of her mental health care team members? > > ETA: or of the mental health professionals within her social circle? I think **Der Trihs** was talking about Chesterton, not Annie-Xmas’ shrink. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/38 "2010-10-13T02:41:36Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Shrinks aren’t moral philosophers - their job is to make darned sure their patients don’t off themselves. Suggesting that there are _any_ circumstances in which suicide is acceptable is just not something a responsible shrink is going to do in earshot of a patient, IMHO. On the topic of suicide (from the 9/10 _Harper’s_ [Treatise], Critique of Pure Semen) by an actual moral philosopher, Immanuel Kant: > [@](#): > > “It would be difficult to find evidence that most people who reach a very mature age were married” -Kant > [@](#): > > “Old single men (or those who become widowers at a young age) generally keep an appearance of youth much longer than do married people, which seems to be evidence of a longer life expectancy”-Kant, at age 74 > [@](#): > > “It is immoral to call such a vice as this by name” -Kant, in a text in which the word “masturbation” did not appear once. > This sin, which Kant considered graver even than suicide, is of particular concern to the teenager. Wrote Kant: “One must forcefully show him what makes [masturbation] so repugnant, one must show him that by committing this act he makes himself an enemy of the propagation of our species, he should be warned that it will sap him of his physical forces and that he is turning himself prematurely into an old man.” > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I was talking to this idiot in a non-professional setting. He also told me that I would probably be helped by anti-psychotic medication, despite my pastpill addiction and my absolute horror of the slightest chance of future addictionto anything. Don’t kill yourself before you try medical marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/39 "2010-10-13T02:52:08Z")
Many years ago, a guy committed suicide by jumping out of the window of an office building in down town Detroit. He landed on a woman on her way to wok in the morning and killed her. That is worse than regular suicide, because it took an innocent person along. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748/40 "2010-10-13T03:00:38Z")
I can think of a number of people whose suicides would be to the benefit of us all – with the possible exception of bad televised eulogies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-certain-actions-worse-than-suicide/555748.md?page=3)