# Are children some kind of pure state? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 4, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898 "2020-03-04T00:48:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jerez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c68b51/32.png) [@jerez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerez)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/21 "2020-03-06T09:36:32Z")
They are the undisputed kings of comedy. Of course they’re pure! From an adult perspective, of course. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/22 "2020-03-07T06:53:34Z")
I haven’t read the website, so I will just guess that it’s just updated Rousseau. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/23 "2020-03-07T19:34:12Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Most referring to the “world in chaos” segment. I find it odd that recent spiritual trends seem to label childhood as some unspoiled version of the world before we “messed them up”. I don’t know about recent. Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven belonged to children and warned converts to have child-like hearts. (Regardless of your belief in Scripture, the point remains that this is not a new idea) ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/24 "2020-03-08T01:59:36Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I don’t know about recent. Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven belonged to children and warned converts to have child-like hearts. > > (Regardless of your belief in Scripture, the point remains that this is not a new idea) No, babies are born in original sin. By default, they go to Limbo if thet die in infancy, too young to have committed actual sins, but not having been freed from original sin. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2020, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/25 "2020-03-08T03:57:44Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > No, babies are born in original sin. By default, they go to Limbo if thet die in infancy, too young to have committed actual sins, but not having been freed from original sin. Yeah I remember hearing something about that. Doesn’t make any sense to me that infants would get punished like that. But I am mostly referring to what the link is saying. I have heard it before, people likening children to having “unconditioned minds” and therefor having a more pure vision of reality without us adults “laying everything on them”. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/26 "2020-03-10T00:55:37Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I crushed bugs before I read more about them That’s you. I have three children (six, three and four months). The oldest girl still tells me, when I go out on our terrace at night to make sure everything is turned off, “don’t step on the beetles, Daddy! Watch out! Be careful, Daddy!” The younger girl, too. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > Not even touching the nonsense about love The nonsense about love? Seriously, children are quite capable of love. I’m not even talking about my own kids here, just what I’ve seen over the years. > [@jtur88](#): > > Most children cry in empathy when first read Three Litttle Kittens, but some do not. No doubt. With my girls (leaving out the four month old boy), my wife and I always try to distract them when one of those begging commercials (either for children or for animals) comes on, if we’ve got the television on. Both girls start to cry. We call them the “sad baby” commercials. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Ask any parent of more than one child, who tried to raise the kids quite similarly, but they ended up quite differently. Very much so. My two girls have very, very different personalities. Even the little dude is starting to show signs of being his own person. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > Except from my experience their idea of how children are is nothing like reality. Children are very cruel to those who are different than them (me being a case in point, I got picked on a lot). There’s no soul template or whatever nonsense they’re saying and their view is a privileged one because they live in the comfort of modernity. I am sorry you experienced that. Some children can be horrible. Many are not. > [@jtur88](#): > > No, babies are born in original sin. By default, they go to Limbo if thet die in infancy, too young to have committed actual sins, but not having been freed from original sin. The church (or at least the Catholic Church, which, as far as I know, is the only church that ever held a belief in Limbo) has pretty much abandoned Limbo. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/27 "2020-03-10T04:32:46Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > No, babies are born in original sin. By default, they go to Limbo if thet die in infancy, too young to have committed actual sins, but not having been freed from original sin. Only according to the Roman Catholic church. Actual scripture says: _And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven._ and _“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven"_ and _Jesus, however, said, “Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to people like these.”_ Keep in mind that Jesus was referring to Jewish children who had never been baptized from any “original sin”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/28 "2020-03-10T04:45:58Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Only according to the Roman Catholic church. Actual scripture says: > _And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven._ > and > _“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven"_ > and > _Jesus, however, said, “Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom from heaven belongs to people like these.”_ > > Keep in mind that Jesus was referring to Jewish children who had never been baptized from any “original sin”. This doesn’t mean children were/are sinless. ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/29 "2020-03-10T05:58:47Z")
In Baptist theology they have the age of accountability. Before a kid reaches this age, which is never specified, they automatically go to heaven when they die. They take this from David and Bathsheba’s baby that God killed as punishment. David says he’ll see the baby again in heaven, and an entire theology was built around how this could happen. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/30 "2020-03-10T11:44:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This doesn’t mean children were/are sinless. True, he should have been saying that you get to be under 5’ tall or like juice boxes. The usual interpretation is that children are innocent though and, whether you subscribe to that it or not, the initial point holds up: viewing children as innocent isn’t a recent spiritual phenomenon as people (rightly or wrongly) have been taking this interpretation for a couple thousand years now. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/31 "2020-03-10T14:41:05Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Most children cry in empathy when first read Three Litttle Kittens, but some do not. I’ve seen no study, but I suspect that fundamental response carries through to adults who can;t help sniffling. Sociopaths are the outliers. > [@kayaker](#): > > What? The poem about kittens who lose, then find their mittens? 😕 Keep in mind that not everybody gets to hear the stanza about finding their mittens. Their takeaway is that the kittens don’t get any pie. My takeaway, when I first heard the rhyme was: _I’ve got my mittens right here. Can I have their pie?_ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/32 "2020-03-10T20:29:07Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Honestly, I suspect the only reason parents don’t get stabbed or shot when we don’t give them their favorite food or whatever is that we don’t give them knives and guns to play with. And if infants had better coordination and access to weapons, the consequences of delayed feeding or loaded diapers would be far more severe. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/33 "2020-03-10T20:31:40Z")
> [@TheMysteryWriter](#): > > In Baptist theology they have the age of accountability. Before a kid reaches this age, which is never specified, they automatically go to heaven when they die. They take this from David and Bathsheba’s baby that God killed as punishment. David says he’ll see the baby again in heaven, and an entire theology was built around how this could happen. IMHO, too much is read into that verse. It is merely David stating that he believes he’ll see his son again in the afterlife, but doesn’t necessarily mean David is _ **correct** _. David could be making a wrong assumption with his statement. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/34 "2020-03-10T20:36:05Z")
I’m at work and can’t do research, but haven’t there been serial killers who exhibited violent or highly atypical behavior from extremely early childhood? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/35 "2020-03-10T20:49:18Z")
Find me a teacher who agrees [edit: with the titular question]. I dare you. I was at a party recently, talking with a mom whose ex-husband (and shared-custody co-parent) believed his daughter was an enlightened being. Based on what came out of those conversations, I encouraged her to contact DSS. The idea that children are enlightened, or pure, or anything like that, may seem on the surface to give kids extra respect. But it doesn’t. It fetishizes and fantasizes them, and is a really dangerous approach to kids. I love kids. I have two, and I teach them, and I wouldn’t trade my career for most anything. But they’re human beings in a developmental stage, not supernatural entities, and treating them as such is fundamentally dehumanizing. ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/36 "2020-03-10T21:46:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, too much is read into that verse. It is merely David stating that he believes he’ll see his son again in the afterlife, but doesn’t necessarily mean David is _ **correct** _. David could be making a wrong assumption with his statement. Your take is as valid as anyone else’s. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/37 "2020-03-10T23:17:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m at work and can’t do research, but haven’t there been serial killers who exhibited violent or highly atypical behavior from extremely early childhood? Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer killed and preserved the bodies of animals when he was a child and seemed preoccupied with death and decay. Edmund Kemper used to play a game where his sister threw the switch to execute him in the electric chair and he was made to sleep in the basement so he wouldn’t molest his sisters. He killed his grandparents when he was 12 because “I just wanted to see what it would be like to shoot grandma.”. There are many examples like this. ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/38 "2020-03-10T23:36:15Z")
Sometimes kids are really violent due to attachment disorder. When they’re babies they don’t emotionally attach to a caregiver, and so they never learn love or empathy and don’t develop a conscience. [Attachment disorder - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder) I learned about this from the Lifetime movie Child of Rage. And then I watched a documentary about Beth Thomas, the now adult woman that the movie was based on. I also read the book that her 2nd adoptive mother wrote. [https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/kids/stunning-transformation-of-beth-thomas-tvs-child-of-rage-psychopath/news-story/2e8658abcd295a768b4d9d8a73845537](https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/kids/stunning-transformation-of-beth-thomas-tvs-child-of-rage-psychopath/news-story/2e8658abcd295a768b4d9d8a73845537) But sometimes kids are just born with defective brains where there is a filter missing that makes it so that nothing stops them from acting out on whatever they want to do. They get angry, then they choke you. And punishments don’t work on these kids. Rewarding positive behavior is the only thing that helps. [When Your Child Is a Psychopath - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/) I think we probably have to define “pure” before we can determine if infants are born in that state. And then you have to decide if you believe in a soul or not. You could believe that a newborn soul is pure, but that the body/brain somehow corrupts it. Or if you don’t believe in a soul then I guess you could call ignorance of good and evil “purity” or an ability to understand that some things harm other people. Once you’ve passed the stage where you understand “Mom” exists outside of yourself and that she has feelings and can be hurt, then you’re in a different state than before. I don’t know. These are interesting questions, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/39 "2020-03-10T23:37:32Z")
There have also been serial killers who didn’t show extreme behavior as children. Likewise there are people who showed extreme behavior as children and never became serial killers. As much as it confuses you, humans aren’t simply preprogrammed robots executing code. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898/40 "2020-03-11T01:52:33Z")
While it is disputed how much of psychopathy is environmental, no clinician believes it to be 100%. It is presumed that biology and heredity play a part. Which means at least some babies are born psychopaths. Which essentially means that some are pre-programmed to feel no remorse about immoral behavior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-children-some-kind-of-pure-state/848898.md?page=1)