# Are Chiropractors bogus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653 "2013-11-11T16:24:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/41 "2013-11-28T01:34:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The only thing that grates me about chiropractors is that they refer to themselves as “Dr.”, it’s such a misnomer it borders on fraud. Raises a good query: _How_ is it that they get to call themselves “doctor”? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/42 "2013-11-28T02:36:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I threw my back out badly more than 20 years ago. With rest, exercise and careful lifting technique, pain and stiffness only occur on a short-term basis every year or two. As long as I avoid seeing a chiro, I get along well. Which proves something or other. 🙂 I am also anti-chiropractic, and have overcome back pain just by more or less following my family doc’s advice. Either that, or, it resolved by my body healing itself. Just like people who go to chiropractors and then saw improvement, I have no way to know. In slight defense of the chiros, some DO’s and MD’s offer treatments of back pain that are even worse: [http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39658423/#.Upan1MTErX8](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39658423/#.Upan1MTErX8) Another slight defense is that chiropractic education is moving in a more scientific direction: > **[The prevalence of the term subluxation in North American English-Language...](https://chiromt.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2045-709X-19-14)** > > Background The subluxation construct has been a divisive term in the chiropractic profession. There is a paucity of evidence to document the subluxation. Some authors have questioned the propriety of continuing to use the term. Aim The purpose of... But before people who go to chiropractors start feeling smug, read this devastating comment from my last chiropractic link: > [@](#): > > field practitioners hold in much disdain those who dedicate themselves to an academic career Suppose that better treatments for back pain are developed. Who is going to adopt them? Not some chiropractor who thinks he knows better than pointy-headed professors, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![SerafinaPekala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SerafinaPekala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SerafinaPekala)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/43 "2013-11-28T02:51:12Z")
Chiro at best can feel good momentarily. At worst it can kill you. "A retrospective study of stroke cases at two major academic medical centers, led by University of California, San Francisco neurologists, indicates that chiropractic manipulation of the neck can cause vertebral artery dissection, a tearing of the vertebral artery leading to the brain that causes stroke or transient ischemic attack (TIA). Evidence from the study also suggests that spinal manipulative therapy may exacerbate pre-existing vertebral artery dissections." > **[Chiropractic treatment of the neck can be a risk factor for stroke](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2003/05/97065/chiropractic-treatment-neck-can-be-risk-factor-stroke)** And have you ever noticed there’s never a negative xray in chiro? Ka-ching! ---
**Author:** ![SerafinaPekala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SerafinaPekala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SerafinaPekala)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/44 "2013-11-28T02:52:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Raises a good query: _How_ is it that they get to call themselves “doctor”? Its a Doctor of Chiropractic degree, not a medical degree, but do most ppl realize that? ---
**Author:** ![Zago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zago)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/45 "2013-11-28T03:17:50Z")
I’m in the camp that some are legit and some are bogus, as I noted upthread, I was helped tremendously and I didn’t have to curb my lifestyle while I was getting treatments - that would have meant having to stop work since my problem was that I couldn’t stand for any significant period. Not all (including the OP), but most of the posters on this thread who call the practice bullshit _ **have never actually tried it** _. I think if anything, _ **most** _ of the chiropractic users in this thread have demonstrated that they are savy, even skeptical patients. Some of us have been helped. ---
**Author:** ![SerafinaPekala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SerafinaPekala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SerafinaPekala)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/46 "2013-11-28T03:28:40Z")
I went to one recommended to me for neck pain. (work-related d/t holding a phone on my shoulder in the neck cradle given to me by the office) After the requisite 12 visits she prescribed after seeing my “positive xray for subluxation” I didnt get better or worse. The treatments didnt help, but at least I didnt suffer a torn vertebral artery. :eek: Quitting the job from hell cured the neck pain. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/47 "2013-11-28T03:50:43Z")
> [@Zago](#): > > I think if anything, _ **most** _ of the chiropractic users in this thread have demonstrated that they are savy, even skeptical patients. Then why am I seeing the correlation = causation fallacy in this thread? Most pains resolve themselves. A skeptical patient (and doctor) knows that, and will not draw treatment conclusions from anecdotes. Here are voices of the true medical skepticism that leads to progress: > [@](#): > > The history of medicine is the history of folly and quackery, and whether the profession has even now arrived at any certainty is an is an uncertainty, for assuredly the next age will have undone all that this prides itself in doing – New Monthly Magazine, 1832 > [@](#): > > Half of what we are going to teach you is wrong, and half of it is right. Our problem is that we don’t know which half is which. – Charles Sidney Burwell, Dean, Harvard Medical School, 1935-49 ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/48 "2013-11-28T04:09:51Z")
I’m sure I’ve posted this before in another chiropractic thread, so forgive the repetition but… When he was 37, my dad’s back pain was diagnosed by the doctor as curvature of the spine, and he was told there was nothing they could do for it, so do whatever you feel helps. Dad started seeing a chiropractor, and the chiro became convinced Dad’s diagnosis was wrong. He ran some tests himself (I was a child so I don’t remember what exactly they were, but I think they were blood tests), and told my dad he had a form of arthritis called “ankylosing spondilitis”. Dad went back to the doctor with that information, the doctor scoffed but arranged some tests, and a week or two later gravely informed him that he had a form of arthritis called “ankylosing spondilitis”. As far as my parents are concerned, that chiropractor can do no wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/49 "2013-11-28T04:28:40Z")
> [@Zago](#): > > Not all (including the OP), but most of the posters on this thread who call the practice bullshit _ **have never actually tried it** _. That’s because I won’t let a fucking quack chiropractor touch me. ---
**Author:** ![Zago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zago)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/50 "2013-11-28T04:41:54Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Then why am I seeing the correlation = causation fallacy in this thread? > > Most pains resolve themselves. A skeptical patient (and doctor) knows that, and will not draw treatment conclusions from anecdotes. > > Here are voices of the true medical skepticism that leads to progress: > > – New Monthly Magazine, 1832 > > – Charles Sidney Burwell, Dean, Harvard Medical School, 1935-49 Posters on this thread who have found in favor of chiropractic have qualified their experiences, unlike what you do in dismissing all. Your own cites sort of negate themselves since they could be applied to any medical practice: look at the amount of prescription drugs prescribed by mainstream doctors that can actually kill you from side effects. ‘Folly and quakery’ and ‘Half of what we are going to treat you is wrong’…very true, but not just about chiropractors. BTW, I’ve been with my doctor for 20 years, I embrace traditional medicine but when it doesn’t work I’ll accept help where I can it. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/51 "2013-11-28T05:09:32Z")
> [@SerafinaPekala](#): > > And have you ever noticed there’s never a negative xray in chiro? Ka-ching! No, I haven’t. Again, depends on the chiropractor. I went to one who looked at my x-rays and said, “Lose 50 pounds, consider a breast reduction and here’s the number for a great guy who does deep tissue massage; there’s nothing wrong with your spine.” He was absolutely right. And he got a hell of a lot more referrals from me than the chiropractors who seem to never get a negative x-ray. About 1/3 of the people I’ve sent his way are similarly directed to more appropriate therapies after their free consult and x-rays. Also, I’m not sure that requiring weekly or bimonthly or whatever adjustments for long term maintenance is itself a sign that chiropractic doesn’t work. Consider control of hypertension: you don’t just take some pills for a month and it’s cured. Most often, you make lifelong diet and exercise changes and take one or more pills every single day for the rest of your life. Does that mean amlodipine doesn’t effectively treat high blood pressure? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/52 "2013-11-28T06:16:31Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Another slight defense is that chiropractic education is moving in a more scientific direction: > > [The prevalence of the term subluxation in North American English-Language Doctor of chiropractic programs | Chiropractic & Manual Therapies | Full Text](http://www.chiromt.com/content/19/1/14) On the contrary, the impression I get from that article is that there is stubborn resistance among chiropractors to relinquishing the unscientific concept of “subluxations” (which are the foundation of “adjustments” but have not been shown to exist as chiros define them): _“Faculty and alumni resistance may play a part in the continued teaching about the subluxation. Lawrence [10] noted that getting faculty to change is akin to trying to move an iceberg with a toothpick. The recent uproar about the U.S. Council on Chiropractic Education’s new accreditation standards [11,12] and General Chiropractic Council of the UK’s position on the subluxation [13,14] shows how much resistance there is to dropping the term.”_ Academicians like Stephen Perle are very much in the minority when it comes to reforming chiropractic. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Also, I’m not sure that requiring weekly or bimonthly or whatever adjustments for long term maintenance is itself a sign that chiropractic doesn’t work. Consider control of hypertension: you don’t just take some pills for a month and it’s cured. Not an analogous situation. Hypertension is a very real and potentially life-threatening problem. Anti-hypertensive medication (often but not universally utilized to control hypertension) actually lowers blood pressure. By contrast, chiropractic “subluxations” do not exist and chiropractic manipulation cannot correct them. Physicians do not call for return visits every few weeks to keep you in tune. Nor do they commonly embrace nutritional pseudoscience, homeopathy and other forms of quackery that are frequently a part of chiropractic practices.\* \*and which apparently can be [quite lucrative](http://www.chiroeco.com/chiropractic/news/4455/907/homeopathy-and-nutrition-enrich-dr-gary-snyders-practice/). ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/53 "2013-11-28T11:45:13Z")
Seems common in chiroquack medicine: is this true? I have a hard time believing that so many humans are born this way. In any event, there seems to be no shortage of chiropractors…so they do not lack for patients. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/54 "2013-11-28T13:01:36Z")
Of course one leg’s shorter than the other. No two items are exactly the same length! The real question is: _“How much shorter than the other is the leg and how consequential is that difference?”_ ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/55 "2013-11-28T13:46:44Z")
> [@Zago](#): > > Your own cites sort of negate themselves since they could be applied to any medical practice . . . Yes. A century from now people will probably look back on lopping off body parts as a cancer treatment with horror, and experts will probably identify a subset of it that couldn’t possible have been helpful. I hope they do. The difference isn’t that mainstream medicine is 100 percent evidence based, or that every mainstream doc is a competent open-minded scientist, but that mainstream medicine, since it is institutionally open to change, can improve, while alternative medicine is a stuck record. And in as much as alternative medicine isn’t totally stuck – in as much as some chiropractors are abandoning manipulations in favor of massage – and they are dreadfully slow to do so – it is because of the influence of evidence-based medicine. I can tell you that my doctor listens well. I can say that her treatments and referrals vary tremendously based on what I say. I’ve seen scientific advances result in her changing her advice. But to judge her on the basis of my personal outcomes would be ridiculous, because one person is not a scientific sample. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/56 "2013-11-28T14:04:49Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hypertension is a very real and potentially life-threatening problem. Anti-hypertensive medication (often but not universally utilized to control hypertension) actually lowers blood pressure. By contrast, chiropractic “subluxations” do not exist and chiropractic manipulation cannot correct them. > > Physicians do not call for return visits every few weeks to keep you in tune. Nor do they commonly embrace nutritional pseudoscience, homeopathy and other forms of quackery that are frequently a part of chiropractic practices.\* > > \*and which apparently can be [quite lucrative](http://www.chiroeco.com/chiropractic/news/4455/907/homeopathy-and-nutrition-enrich-dr-gary-snyders-practice/). All of those are true and accurate criticisms of chiropractic. None of them are the argument I was arguing against, that chiropractic is bogus as evidenced by the need for continuing treatment. I’m not arguing that chiropractic is legit, I’m arguing that that’s a silly argument. Many legitimate medical treatments are continuous in nature, because when there’s something actually wrong with the body, we can’t always fix it for once and for all. Imagine for a moment that the spine really was wobbly enough to create chiropractic subluxations (as opposed to significant displacement subluxations you can see on an x-ray). I know, it isn’t and it doesn’t, but just imagine for a moment it is. Why _wouldn’t_ that be a chronic condition? Why, if you rammed the spine back into place, wouldn’t whatever disease or anatomical or lifestyle condition that caused that subluxation to happen, happen again? They’re not doing anything to treat the underlying cause of the subluxation, just stack the blocks a little straighter. Pancreases don’t fix themselves after a shot of insulin, kidneys don’t start working after dialysis (there’s a case where \*more \*than “return visits every few weeks to keep you in tune” are needed)…I see no reason why spines would stabilize themselves after an adjustment \*if \*spines actually needed adjustment for chiropractic subluxations. You can argue that chiropractic subluxations are bullshit, and I’m right there with ya. But I can’t agree that continuous care itself is a sign of bullshit, as a couple of posters have suggested; it’s simply a sign of a chronic condition that requires management as opposed to a cure. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/57 "2013-11-28T14:40:15Z")
> [@Zago](#): > > Not all (including the OP), but most of the posters on this thread who call the practice bullshit _ **have never actually tried it** _. Yes, and like with acupuncture, homeopathy, chemotherapy, antibiotics, and literally every single medical procedure, this puts us in a _better_ position to examine its efficacy objectively, rather than a worse one. It means there’s one less personal bias we can be tainted by. You see, we have to examine actual _evidence_. And evidence in medicine is hard to qualify - you need careful controls over as many factors as possible, and it is often _very_ difficult to quantify what caused what. This is why personal anecdotes, no matter how sincere or well-qualified, are not particularly valuable, especially when it comes to incredibly subjective things like pain. The stories of individuals going to chiropractors and then having their pain eased are _simply not impressive_, for an assortment of reasons - not the least of which being the inherent randomness in medicine combined with the fact that we’re dealing with a tiny sample size which is expressing nothing but positive results. There’s a huge list of reasons why such anecdotes fail. I could go over more of them; [try this if you’re interested or just ask me here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-6cTXqaTPM). I have never tried chiropractic. I never went on my own to form my own opinion on personal experience. _But I don’t have to_. I can immediately access large amounts of _real_ evidence - not my subjective, personal opinion which stands to be tainted by countless other confounding factors and is still simply a sample size of one. I can go to PubMed and look up massive numbers of studies regarding Chiropractice. And this _infinitely_ trumps any anecdote - even my own. Lemme just finish by saying this. Most people who believe in homeopathy believe because they tried it and they thought it worked. They used their personal experience to make a judgment call on the efficacy of the treatment. Food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/58 "2013-11-28T16:01:23Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > All of those are true and accurate criticisms of chiropractic. None of them are the argument I was arguing against, that chiropractic is bogus as evidenced by the need for continuing treatment. I dunno. Charging once for treating an imaginary problem is bad enough. Insisting that a patient needs to keep coming back in for a lifetime to treat an imaginary problem is fraud on a major scale. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/59 "2013-11-29T00:17:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Raises a good query: _How_ is it that they get to call themselves “doctor”? Because they have a doctor of chiropractic degree. Just like people with a DDS (dentists) and DVM (vets) can call themselves doctors. Like it or not, “Doctor” does **not** imply MD. Check what they put after their name to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653/60 "2013-11-29T00:58:25Z")
I know full well that there are more kinds of doctor than medical doctors. Dentists, Veterinarians, and other professions who use the title _doctor_ demonstrate knowledge and ability in that profession to obtain the title. Chiropractors? Doesn’t seem to be the case in reality. Osteopaths? Seems they’ve abandoned the woo completely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-chiropractors-bogus/673653.md?page=4)