# Are Christians in America persecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639 "2013-01-18T18:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/41 "2013-01-18T21:53:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Driving the Godbothering out of the public square is not. > [@Algher](#): > > 1. Does my faith command the same respect, power and status in the public square as it did when I was boy? Nope. > [@Debaser](#): > > If Muslims were the overwhelming majority of people in the US that would be a problem if the government tried to wipe Islam from the public square. A question (for people on both sides of this debate): What is the “public square”? Does it include this message board? Is the Internet generally part of the “public square”? If I pass out leaflets or flyers to people on the sidewalk, am I in the “public square”? Are billboards in the “public square”? How about public libraries? Are those signs outside of churches with the little movable letters that say stuff like “CH CH. WHAT’S MISSING? U R” and “BINGO WED NIGHT” and “BURN IN HELL, YE HERETICS!”–are those in the “public square”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/42 "2013-01-18T22:07:15Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > A question (for people on both sides of this debate): What is the “public square”? Government funded institutions, in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/43 "2013-01-18T22:13:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Christians know what persecution is, it’s what the early Roman Emperors did and what the early martyrs suffered, and, no, anything that does not rise to that level is probably **not** persecution. You’ve stepped immediately into the No True Scotsman fallacy. Perhaps instead of an either/or answer to the question, it’s better to ask to what degree Christians are persecuted. We also need to consider state-sponsored persecution versus persecution by the population at large. But I think there’s another framing problem. Christians are not a monolithic bloc. Looking back in American history, we see many cases where one Christian group is persecuted by another. That was mostly in the colonial period, but it gives some context to what Christian persecution looks like in America. More recently, we had the de-facto barring from office of Catholics in many states. In the present-day US, I don’t think there’s any state-sponsored persecution. But I think there is some degree of bigotry against some Christians. Or at least a perception of bigotry. A lot of it is misplaced–suing to remove religious texts from public spaces is not persecution. It’s an unbiased application of the law. But some bigotry against Christians is real. Fundamentalist Christians who espouse intolerant views are at times ignored/denounced by some people. While disagreeing with their intolerance (as I do) is acceptable, others take it another step and mock the intolerant people. That’s legal, but it’s also bigoted and a (very mild) form of persecution. Those Christians who feel persecuted are usually those who hold unpopular views. Being unpopular by itself is not persecution, but the weight of public opinion against you is not an easy burden. And when a few other people go beyond speaking out against your views and into personal attacks, it shouldn’t be surprising that a feeling of persecution develops. Unfortunately, those same Christians often do not realize that their views are not shared by other Christians (or they don’t consider the others to be Christians), so they complain about the persecution of Christians, when it’s actually just their small subgroup being harassed. And they generate little sympathy because the intolerant Christians complaining about being persecuted are often very active about persecuting others. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/44 "2013-01-18T22:14:23Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > A question (for people on both sides of this debate): What is the “public square”? Does it include this message board? Is the Internet generally part of the “public square”? If I pass out leaflets or flyers to people on the sidewalk, am I in the “public square”? Are billboards in the “public square”? How about public libraries? Are those signs outside of churches with the little movable letters that say stuff like “CH CH. WHAT’S MISSING? U R” and “BINGO WED NIGHT” and “BURN IN HELL, YE HERETICS!”–are those in the “public square”? Public Square refers to government allowed / supported / backed. You know - _ **established** _. When I was a kid, we did the Lord’s prayer in Kindergarten. In high school, we had a prayer as part of our graduation ceremony. I visited memorials on military bases with crosses. Nativity scenes were a common sight at Town Hall. Much of this has changed. Change creates fear, especially when it is something you are used to and like. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/45 "2013-01-18T22:19:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Government funded institutions, in this context. But is that really a reasonable definition of “public square”? If we mean “government-funded institutions”, shouldn’t we just say “government-funded institutions”? Also, public libraries are “government-funded institutions”, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a public library that didn’t have copies of the Bible and other religious texts; books about theology; devotional literature; fiction with strongly religious themes; etc. > [@Algher](#): > > Public Square refers to government allowed / supported / backed. You know - _ **established** _. Government “allowed”? In this country the government “allows” all sorts of religious and anti-religious speech (and political speech and articistic speech and speech about football or the weather). In fact, the government _actively protects_ religious speech–if you try to prevent people from speaking freely about their religion–in public–in many circumstances they can call the cops on you. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/46 "2013-01-18T22:25:29Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I am a Christian. > > 1. Am I persecuted in America for my faith? Nope. > > 2. Does my faith command the same respect, power and status in the public square as it did when I was boy? Nope. > > 3. does not make 1) true. Could not have said it better. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/47 "2013-01-18T22:30:41Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But is that really a reasonable definition of “public square”? If we mean “government-funded institutions”, shouldn’t we just say “government-funded institutions”?" Probably. “Public square” is a pretty archaic phrase. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > Also, public libraries are “government-funded institutions”, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a public library that didn’t have copies of the Bible and other religious texts; books about theology; devotional literature; fiction with strongly religious themes; etc. Sure; but that’s not promoting a religion, or even religion in general. They have works from all sorts of religions and anti-religious works as well; they are impartial. The biggest problem with most of the people who want religion “in the public square” is that they want it to be their religion, alone, with no dissenting opinions or criticism. They don’t want a Comparative Religions class, they want a class about how “Everyone Must Be A Christian (of our particular sect) And Unbelievers Are Evil”. They aren’t going to get that, and they won’t tolerate a Comparative Religions class, so public schools tend to just be silent on religion since they’ll never be allowed to teach about it accurately. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/48 "2013-01-18T22:33:54Z")
From what I’ve annecdotally observed, certain Christians seem to think that Christmas and Easter decorations in schools or other government facilities, teaching from the Bible in public school, prayers, In God We Trust and other tenets of their religeon is just sort of “the norm”. Other religeons or even athiests are “tolerated” in that they are allowed their token representation without harassment. But they are also expected to put up with Christian stuff (which typically dominates). What they don’t get is that non-Christians may not want to have to put up with that stuff at all. I had an argument with one of my idiot “friends” who was complaining about how the school cancelled a religeous production of It’s A Charlie Brown Christmas). She was going on about how the woman who sued the school ruined Christmas for all the children. My response was “It didn’t ruin it for the Jewish kids.” The other thing that Christians feel persecuted by is the fact that the entire country does not follow their moral compass or dogma. Especially with regards to abortion, evolution, hetero marriage, sexual permiscuity, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/49 "2013-01-18T22:42:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Probably. “Public square” is a pretty archaic phrase. As used in debates about separation of church and state, it tends to be an incoherent, misleading, and downright deceptive phrase. “Public square” may well have some useful meaning–the “public square” as opposed to stuff that you do in the privacy of your own home–but allowing people to casually equate it with “government institutions” is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/50 "2013-01-19T00:06:13Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If Muslims were the overwhelming majority of people in the US that would be a problem if the government tried to wipe Islam from the public square. Let’s try it in a majority Muslim country and see how they react. I bet it will be not pleasant! Some governments of Muslim countries try to do just that, with some mixed success. Check out the history of post-Ottoman Turkey; several of its governments have been overthrown by military coups, but never by popular revolution, and never for being too secularizing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/51 "2013-01-19T00:14:07Z")
Pets have a better argument that they’re being enslaved than American Christians claiming they’re being persecuted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/52 "2013-01-19T00:37:04Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I long ago accepted that, for most Christians, imposing Christianity on other people by force of government is indeed an important tenet of their religion. So, yeah, being a modern human being and supporting the separation of church and state does in fact “infringe” on their practice to some extent, but tough shit for them. From [_Lest Darkness Fall,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall) by L. Sprague de Camp (a _Connecticut Yankee_ story – 20th-Century American archaelogist Martin Padway finds himself transported by a bolt of lightning to 6th-Century Rome; in need of money, he has just invented/introduced the process of distilling wine into brandy): > [@](#): > > The joint was in the theater district on the north side of the Capitoline. The “music” was furnished by a young woman who twanged a harp and sang songs in Calabrian dialect, which the cash customers seemed to find very funny. > > “Let’s drink to --” Thomasus started to say “success” for the thirtieth time, but changed his mind. “Say, Martinus, we’d better buy some of this lousy wine, or he’ll have us thrown out. How does this stuff mix with wine?” At Padway’s expression, he said: “Don’t worry, Martinus, old friend, this is on me. Haven’t made a night of it in years. You know, family man.” He winked and snapped his fingers for the waiter. When he had finally gotten through his little ceremony, he said: “Just aminute, Martinus, old friend, I see a man who owes me money. I’ll be right back.” He waddled unsteadily across the room. > > A man at the next table asked Padway suddenly: “What’s that stuff you and old one-eye have been drinking, friend?” > > “Oh, just a foreign drink called brandy,” said Padway uneasily. > > “That’s right, you’re a foreigner, aren’t you? I can tell by your accent.” He screwed up his face, and then said: “I know; you’re a Persian. I know a Persian accent.” > > “Not exactly,” said Padway. “Farther away than that.” > > “That so? How do you like Rome?” The man had very large and very black eyebrows. > > “Fine, so far,” said Padway. > > “Well, you haven’t seen anything,” said the man. "It hasn’t been the same since the Goths came."He lowered his voice conspiratorially: “Mark my words, it won’t be like this always, either!” > > “You don’t like the Goths?” > > “No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!” > > “Persecution?” Padway raised his eyebrows. > > “Religious persecution. We won’t stand for it forever.” > > “I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.” > > “That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country. If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!” > > “You mean that you’re persecuted because the heretics and such are not?” > > “Certainly, isn’t that obvious? We won’t stand-- What’s your religion, by the way?” > > “Well,” said Padway, “I’m what in my country is called a Congregationalist. That’s the nearest thing to Orthodoxy that we have.” > > “Hm-m-m. We’ll make a good Catholic out of you, perhaps. So long as you’re not one of these Maronites or Nestorians–” > > “What’s that about Nestorians?” said Thomasus, who had returned unobserved. “We who have the only logical view of the nature of the Son – that He was a man in whom the Father indwelt --” > > “Nonsense!” snapped Eyebrows. “That’s what you expect of half-baked amateur theologians. Our view – that of the dual nature of the Son – has been irrefutably shown --” > > “Hear that, God? As if one person could have more than one nature --” > > “You’re all crazy!” rumbled a tall, sad-looking man with thin yellow hair, watery blue eyes, and a heavy accent. “We Arians abhor theological controversy, being sensible men. But if you want asensible view of the nature of the Son --” > > “You’re a Goth?” barked Eyebrows tensely. > > “No, I’m a Vandal, exiled from Africa. But as I was saying” – he began counting on his fingers – “either the Son was a man, or He was a god, or He was something in between. Well, now, we admit He wasn’t a man. And there’s only one God, so He wasn’t a god. So He must have been --” > > About that time things began to happen too fast for Padway to follow them all at once. Eyebrows jumped up and began yelling like one possessed. Padway couldn’t follow him, except to note that the term “infamous heretics” occurred about once per sentence. Yellow Hair roared back at him, and other men began shouting from various parts of the room: “Eat him up, barbarian!” “This is an Orthodox country, and those who don’t like it can go back where they --” “Damned nonsense about dual natures! We Monophysites --” “I’m a Jacobite, and I can lick any man in the place!” “Let’s throw all the heretics out!” “I’m a Eunomian, and I can lick any _two_ men in the place!” Padway saw something coming and ducked, the mug missed his head by an inch and a half. When he looked up the room was a blur of action. Eyebrows was holding the self-styled Jacobite by the hair and punching his face; Yellow Hair was swinging four feet of bench around his head and howling a Vandal battle song. Padway hit one champion of Orthodoxy in the middle; his place was immediately taken by another who hit Padway in the middle. Then they were overborne by a rush of men. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/53 "2013-01-19T01:33:37Z")
As a christian the worse I’ve dealt with is having people like Der Trihs declare me dumb or evil for my belief. On a message board. Nope, I’m good. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/54 "2013-01-19T01:34:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The First Amendment states there should be no state sponsored religion, ie no official US government religion. It’s been interpreted in the most severe of ways to mean that there can be no mention or recognition of religion by government at all. It’s understandable for Christians to feel persecuted by the way they are treated in this country. So “religion” only means “Christian” is what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/55 "2013-01-19T01:57:38Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I am a Christian. > > 1. Am I persecuted in America for my faith? Nope. > > 2. Does my faith command the same respect, power and status in the public square as it did when I was boy? Nope. I’m not absolutely certain I buy your second point anyway. I don’t think there’s any doubt Christianityis in many ways MORE of a presence in American life than it used to be. Ronald Reagan, as I recall, wasn’t a regular churchgoer. It’s unthinkable that a person could be elected President today and get away with that. While the USA is more diverse than it once was in the range of visible religious groups, it seems to have made Christianity and much harder, more strident force. Evangelical Christianity is far more of a persuasive political entity than it was 40 years ago. You can’t spin through a radio dial without, within a few stations, hearing a “religious” station that’s almost wholly political; “religious” stations spend the great majority of their time on matters of politics, usually the trifecta of “Gays are evil,” “vote Republican,” and “America should be Christian.” I don’t think that used to be true to the same extent. Religion has been a force in American politics for generations to be sure, but it didn’t used to be the issue that “we should all be Christians.” Religion was, instead, a jumping point for getting into a different issue, like civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/56 "2013-01-19T02:08:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m not absolutely certain I buy your second point anyway. > > I don’t think there’s any doubt Christianityis in many ways MORE of a presence in American life than it used to be. Ronald Reagan, as I recall, wasn’t a regular churchgoer. It’s unthinkable that a person could be elected President today and get away with that. I think a factor is that in the past Christianity was implicit, thus there was less need to talk about something everybody was supposed to agree with. After Obama resigned from Wright’s church, he didn’t join any new church for a while (not sure if he’s a member of any church right now). I haven’t seen anyone make a fuss over how often one attends religious services. > [@](#): > > While the USA is more diverse than it once was in the range of visible religious groups, it seems to have made Christianity and much harder, more strident force. Evangelical Christianity is far more of a persuasive political entity than it was 40 years ago. You can’t spin through a radio dial without, within a few stations, hearing a “religious” station that’s almost wholly political; “religious” stations spend the great majority of their time on matters of politics, usually the trifecta of “Gays are evil,” “vote Republican,” and “America should be Christian.” I don’t think that used to be true to the same extent. Plenty of religious people on both sides were political and strident long before-one of the most famous examples is when a minister in the 1884 elections denounced the Democrats as the party of “Rum, Rebellion, and Romanism” or when the Federalists denounced Thomas Jefferson as an atheist Jacobin. > [@](#): > > Religion has been a force in American politics for generations to be sure, but it didn’t used to be the issue that “we should all be Christians.” Religion was, instead, a jumping point for getting into a different issue, like civil rights. Depends on what you mean by “we should all be Christians”. One of Christianity’s basic goals is evangelization of the world obviously but the Religious Right doesn’t want a theocracy where everybody would be forcibly converted, they’d want a return to the 1950s instead. And most of the time the Religious Right is a jumping-off point for issues such as abortion or gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/57 "2013-01-19T02:11:43Z")
They feel persecuted now because for over a century, Christianity was the de facto state religion. We all said the prayer in school, etc. and now diversity and awareness created change, wherein there should not be any de facto religion of state. If you think about that it must really burn to go from assumed entitlement to be the favoured ‘religion of state’ to being just another faith among many. ouch! I feel for them a little sometimes because it must suck. But they are not being persecuted, they are losing a favoured position. Christians are a good fit for republicans in part because they too would like to turn back time, and are equally blind to how that’s just not going to happen. Their protestations sound not unlike the wailing of a creature in the throes of gasping it’s last breath. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/58 "2013-01-19T05:58:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Depends on what you mean by “we should all be Christians”. One of Christianity’s basic goals is evangelization of the world obviously but the Religious Right doesn’t want a theocracy where everybody would be forcibly converted, they’d want a return to the 1950s instead. From [_The Next American Nation_](http://www.amazon.com/NEXT-AMERICAN-NATION-Nationalism-Revolution/dp/0684825031) (1995), by Michael Lind: > [@](#): > > Conservatives do not recognize how much the nation has changed since the fifties in its religious attitudes. It may be that the religion of nominal Christians in the United States can no longer be described as traditional trinitarian Christian. The scholarly term for their belief is henotheism, the belief that all ethnic groups and cultures have, and should have, their own gods and rites. In Christian theology, this is the heresy of indifferentism. Robert Linder and Richard Pierard have described the evolution of American civil religion: “Its umbrella has changed from evangelical consensus to Protestantism-in-general, to Christianity-in-general, to the Judeo-Christian tradition in general, to deism-in-general.” The decline in belief in Christianity as the only true religion has been extraordinarily rapid in the United States. In a poll taken in 1924 in Muncie, Indiana, 94 percent of high school students agreed that “Christianity is the one true religion and all peoples should be converted to it.” By the late 1970s, merely 38 percent of respondents in a later poll in Muncie agreed that Christianity was the only true faith. Two-thirds of the respondents in a 1991 poll agreed that Christians, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists “pray to the same God.” **That’s** what scares 'em. (And it scares me too, in a way – in this day and age, even high-school students ought to know that Buddhists do not pray to **any** god. Buddha is not a god, not even a god’s prophet, just a guy who sat under a tree and worked things out on his own; and in Buddhism, the gods exist, or might as well, but they are beside the point WRT to what matters, personal salvation/enlightenment – the gods are no more enlightened than we are, and you don’t get enlightenment by praying to them.) And, no, perhaps the Religious Right as a whole does not want a full-on theocracy, etc., but [a visible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism) [segment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism) of it **does.** ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/59 "2013-01-19T06:01:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Ronald Reagan, as I recall, wasn’t a regular churchgoer. It’s unthinkable that a person could be elected President today and get away with that. Barack Obama hasn’t been a regular churchgoer while in office. George W. Bush wasn’t one either. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/60 "2013-01-19T09:12:38Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But is that really a reasonable definition of “public square”? If we mean “government-funded institutions”, shouldn’t we just say “government-funded institutions”? Yes! This always frustrates me about church/state debates. Conservative Christians, whether or on purpose or not, move back and forth from public(part of a government) to public(seen by everyone). So making a point that public schools should not be promoting religion gets construed into me being against religion being displayed in public, like a nativity scene displayed on private property. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=4)