# Are Christians in America persecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639 "2013-01-18T18:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/101 "2013-01-31T18:19:23Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The government interpretations of the first amendment are absurd, and are wrong IMO. Okay, so explain that then, please. How? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/102 "2013-01-31T18:20:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If Muslims were the overwhelming majority of people in the US that would be a problem if the government tried to wipe Islam from the public square. Let’s try it in a majority Muslim country and see how they react. I bet it will be not pleasant! That’s not an answer though. This is the U.S. and we have a First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/103 "2013-01-31T18:22:41Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Proselytizers are permitted to ignore no solicitation orders. Huh? Not on my doorstep they aren’t. My definition of “soliciting” includes visitors to my doorstep trying to sell me on their religion. And I think my definition fits the legal one, too, at least around these parts. But perhaps it varies in different jurisdictions. In any case, I, for one, have expressed my displeasure to all proselytizers who have ignored my two “No soliciting. No exceptions” signs on my front door. Not one has ever said “But I can legally ignore those signs!” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/104 "2013-01-31T18:24:24Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > As used in debates about separation of church and state, it tends to be an incoherent, misleading, and downright deceptive phrase. Yes! Very much so. For instance: A Christian carrying a big cross in front of City Hall is protected by the First Amendment. A government putting up a big cross on City Hall, and not allowing any other religious displays, is not. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/105 "2013-01-31T18:32:07Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > There has never been a population as UN-persecuted as Christians in America, and it is frankly astonishing that they continue to suggest that they are. > > +1 to Kimstu. For some reason it is very easy to convince people they are being persecuted, even when they are the majority in control. I’m not sure why. I think maybe people want to play the part of the victim, perhaps for sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/106 "2013-01-31T18:49:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > On the contrary, I’d say, part of the problem is that according to early Christian doctrine, Christians to some extent are _supposed_ to be persecuted. > > E.g., Matthew 5:11 (KJV): _“Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”_ The basic message is that the larger society is worldly and corrupt, so its natural response to the godly life of Christians will be hostility and attempts at suppression. > > Consequently, many Christians have a persistent impression that if they’re _not_ being persecuted, they must not be doing it right. So any claim that Christians are being victimized or oppressed by society as a whole counts as a validation of their own righteousness. It’s no wonder that many Christians eagerly embrace such claims. So persecuting them would be the proper thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/107 "2013-01-31T18:57:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, so explain that then, please. How? You can’t make me. Look, I’m the closest one in this thread to be defending the notion of Christianity being bashed in the US, and even I have backed away from the argument that they are ‘persecuted’. It might be worth having a discussion if an actual Christian came along and wanted to defend that position, but absent that happening this thread is pointless. I’m not a Christian, so I’m certainly not the best person to be carrying water for them. Suffice it to say, that despite my lack of belief I still think it’s rather obvious that the founding fathers didn’t intend for the first amendment to abolish religion from the public square, rather to prohibit an official state religion. Displaying religious things or having religious activities on public property and using public resources can and should be debated. But it should not, IMHO, be a constitutional issue. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/108 "2013-01-31T19:06:33Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can’t make me. Well, no, I can’t. Would you though? You brought it up after all. > [@](#): > > Look, I’m the closest one in this thread to be defending the notion of Christianity being bashed in the US, and even I have backed away from the argument that they are ‘persecuted’. > > It might be worth having a discussion if an actual Christian came along and wanted to defend that position, but absent that happening this thread is pointless. No it’s not. I’d like to know why you think the First Amendment is misinterpreted. You said so, so you must have thought about that. You don’t have to be a Christian. > [@](#): > > Suffice it to say, that despite my lack of belief I still think it’s rather obvious that the founding fathers didn’t intend for the first amendment to abolish religion from the public square, rather to prohibit an official state religion. Well, no, it doesn’t suffice to say. If you want to discuss it in more detail, good. If not, I’ll simply say that I think you’re dead wrong, and that you’re vastly oversimplifying it, and that in general, it’s been interpreted correctly. > [@](#): > > Displaying religious things or having religious activities on public property and using public resources can and should be debated. But it should not, IMHO, be a constitutional issue. It most definitely should be. If you don’t want to debate it, that’s fine, just say so. I’m still going to say you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/109 "2013-01-31T19:50:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > didn’t intend for the first amendment to abolish religion from the public square You realize that this is a strawman, right? Separation of church and state is not about “abolishing religion from the public square.” > [@](#): > > rather to prohibit an official state religion. This is just stating a truism. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/110 "2013-01-31T19:56:28Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > There has never been a population as UN-persecuted as Christians in America I swear, the first time I read this I thought it was saying that Christians in America were being persecuted by the United Nations. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/111 "2013-01-31T20:00:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I swear, the first time I read this I thought it was saying that Christians in America were being persecuted by the United Nations. Me too. It’s sad that the thought that someone might express a sentiment like that on a MB is so believable in the context of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/112 "2013-01-31T20:00:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If Muslims were the overwhelming majority of people in the US that would be a problem if the government tried to wipe Islam from the public square. Let’s try it in a majority Muslim country and see how they react. I bet it will be not pleasant! It wasn’t pleasant in majority _Christian_ countries either. The Christian theocrats just lost. Not that that hasn’t kept them from trying to drag the clock back. Theocrats are theocrats; the exact superstition they are being theocratic about is typically of minor consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/113 "2013-01-31T20:41:04Z")
Christians are persecuted in the US in the same sense that atheists are persecuted. Some Christians whine about it, just like some atheists whine about it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/114 "2013-01-31T21:03:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Christians are persecuted in the US in the same sense that atheists are persecuted. Some Christians whine about it, just like some atheists whine about it. Atheists whine about being persecuted? Where? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/115 "2013-01-31T21:05:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Christians are persecuted in the US in the same sense that atheists are persecuted. Some Christians whine about it, just like some atheists whine about it. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/116 "2013-01-31T21:07:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If you want to discuss it in more detail, good. If not, I’ll simply say that I think you’re dead wrong, and that you’re vastly oversimplifying it, and that in general, it’s been interpreted correctly. Fine with me. We disagree on the interpretation of the first amendment regarding separation of church and state. But, it’s off topic of this thread and I’d probably be a lousy advocate of my position on the issue because I’m an atheist and really don’t care too much one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/117 "2013-01-31T21:16:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Suffice it to say, that despite my lack of belief I still think it’s rather obvious that the founding fathers didn’t intend for the first amendment to abolish religion from the public square, rather to prohibit an official state religion. I don’t think that distinction is as sharp as you are making it out to be. Unless by “abolish religion from the public square” you mean “prohibit any overt display of piety or religious adherence in a public space,” which is a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/118 "2013-02-01T00:17:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > On the contrary, I’d say, part of the problem is that according to early Christian doctrine, Christians to some extent are _supposed_ to be persecuted. > > > > E.g., Matthew 5:11 (KJV): _“Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”_ The basic message is that the larger society is worldly and corrupt, so its natural response to the godly life of Christians will be hostility and attempts at suppression. > > > > Consequently, many Christians have a persistent impression that if they’re _not_ being persecuted, they must not be doing it right. So any claim that Christians are being victimized or oppressed by society as a whole counts as a validation of their own righteousness. It’s no wonder that many Christians eagerly embrace such claims. > > So persecuting them would be the proper thing to do? 🙂 No, doctrinally speaking the proper thing would be for Christians themselves to live so earnestly in accordance with the teachings of Jesus (e.g., renouncing wealth, sharing their possessions, forgiving sinners, not judging others, turning the other cheek, loving their enemies, sharing hospitality and love with the despised dregs of society, etc. etc. etc.) that the worldly and corrupt element of society would start recoiling from them in uncomprehending horror again. But that would be way outside the comfort zone of many of today’s Christians (and, to be fair, of many non-Christians as well). As things are, there is damn little about the institutional structure or ideology of modern American Christianity that might cause worldly and corrupt people—many of whom are self-professed Christians themselves—to feel even a moment’s uneasiness. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/119 "2013-02-01T00:21:47Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Fine with me. We disagree on the interpretation of the first amendment regarding separation of church and state. But, it’s off topic of this thread and I’d probably be a lousy advocate of my position on the issue because I’m an atheist and really don’t care too much one way or the other. You brought it up. I don’t think it’s off topic either. But if you no longer want to defend it, fine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/120 "2013-02-01T01:09:24Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The government interpretations of the first amendment are absurd, and are wrong IMO. By “government interpretations” do you mean court interpretations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=7)