# Are Christians in America persecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639 "2013-01-18T18:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/121 "2013-02-01T01:20:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Atheists whine about being persecuted? Where? Unfortunately, yes. I could regale you with stories, oh, such stories, from my less-than-wonderful, yet wonderfully brief term as a member of a well-known organization I won’t name here. Hoo-boy, atheists can be as depressing and paranoid as Christians when in a group, let me tell ya. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/122 "2013-02-01T01:41:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > As a semi-practicing Catholic growing up, I agree. The worst things I experienced were gratuitous religion-bashing in _Imagine_\*, … > > \*In context, it’s pretty damn gratuitous in that it seems to come out of nowhere. Even as pretty much an atheist I still think the line seems awfully clunky and out of place even if the sentiment is mostly true. I thought it fit right in because the whole song is clunky, simplistic, stupid, and, along with everything from their solo careers, evidence that somebody else wrote the songs credited to Lennon and McCartney before the white album, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/123 "2013-02-01T04:05:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The technology is still in its infancy. Research continues. Be patient. Well, with the current generation of Li-ion laptop batteries we’ve got the ignition source taken care of. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/124 "2013-02-01T05:50:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Christians are persecuted in the US in the same sense that atheists are persecuted. Slightly less so, actually, even today. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/125 "2013-02-01T12:48:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > On the contrary, I’d say, part of the problem is that according to early Christian doctrine, Christians to some extent are _supposed_ to be persecuted. > > E.g., Matthew 5:11 (KJV): _“Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”_ The basic message is that the larger society is worldly and corrupt, so its natural response to the godly life of Christians will be hostility and attempts at suppression. > > Consequently, many Christians have a persistent impression that if they’re _not_ being persecuted, they must not be doing it right. So any claim that Christians are being victimized or oppressed by society as a whole counts as a validation of their own righteousness. It’s no wonder that many Christians eagerly embrace such claims. And Jesus is quoted as saying,“Take up your cross and follow me”. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/126 "2013-02-01T12:55:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You can’t make me. > > Look, I’m the closest one in this thread to be defending the notion of Christianity being bashed in the US, and even I have backed away from the argument that they are ‘persecuted’. > > It might be worth having a discussion if an actual Christian came along and wanted to defend that position, but absent that happening this thread is pointless. > > I’m not a Christian, so I’m certainly not the best person to be carrying water for them. > > Suffice it to say, that despite my lack of belief I still think it’s rather obvious that the founding fathers didn’t intend for the first amendment to abolish religion from the public square, rather to prohibit an official state religion. > > Displaying religious things or having religious activities on public property and using public resources can and should be debated. But it should not, IMHO, be a constitutional issue. Of course the Christians would not like the symbols of all the other religions next to theirs, the square would have to be bigger to fit all the symbols. A person really living their religon would be far better than a cross or a manger scene. People want the 10 commandments posted, but when it comes to keeping them it is a different story…our Jails are proof of that!The cost of crime alone adds to our national debt. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/127 "2013-02-01T12:59:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I thought it fit right in because the whole song is clunky, simplistic, stupid, and, along with everything from their solo careers, evidence that somebody else wrote the songs credited to Lennon and McCartney before the white album, but YMMV. I always thought it was in favor of religion, saying “Imagine” there was no heaven or Hell".To my mind it was pro-religion. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/128 "2013-02-01T13:53:08Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I always thought it was in favor of religion, saying “Imagine” there was no heaven or Hell".To my mind it was pro-religion. What about where it says: _Imagine there’s no countries It isn’t hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/129 "2013-02-01T13:58:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What about where it says: > > _Imagine there’s no countries > It isn’t hard to do > Nothing to kill or die for > And no religion too_ In this thread about supposed persecution of Christians, y’all are actually bringing up the fact that a songwriter is asking his listeners to imagine something? _Oh! The Horrors!_ ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/130 "2013-02-01T14:07:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In this thread about supposed persecution of Christians, y’all are actually bringing up the fact that a songwriter is asking his listeners to imagine something? _Oh! The Horrors!_ No, you’re right. It’s a silly tangent. I just wanted to point out that Lennon _was_ expression opposition to religion. But, really, I haven’t seen anyone come into this thread who actually believes that Christians are persecuted in America. And no one has tried to establish what “persecution” should mean in this context. Is it enough to cite a single anecdote? Or are we talking about something on a broader basis? Because I can certainly find anecdotes of individuals being persecuted in America. _This American Life_ (or a similar show) once featured a story of a white American woman who had converted to Islam when she married a Middle Eastern immigrant. After 9/11, her husband felt so persecuted he left the country. And the mother and her daughters tried to stay in their small town, but did experience what I would call persecution. And there was another story of a young teacher who took a job in a small town, and her principal pressured her to declare a belief in god and allegiance to Christianity. That’s certainly persecution. Criticism is not persecution. Being barred from using the government to promote your religion is not persecution. Any genuine examples of Christians being persecuted in America? Even anecdotally? And then if we get to the anecdotal stage, can we establish whether that’s something that can be considered enough to say that “Christians are persecuted in America”? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/131 "2013-02-01T14:07:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Atheists whine about being persecuted? Where? There is a well known poster who posted in this very thread who has stated numerous times that he believes that the GOP, if given full control, would round up and kill Athiests. Of course, his viewpoints are… pitworthy, so there is that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/132 "2013-02-01T15:04:57Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > There is a well known poster who posted in this very thread who has stated numerous times that he believes that the GOP, if given full control, would round up and kill Athiests. > > Of course, his viewpoints are… pitworthy, so there is that. But I believe his claim is that a certain group would persecute atheists if given the power to do so, not that atheists are being persecuted in this country _now._ ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/133 "2013-02-01T15:56:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Criticism is not persecution. Being barred from using the government to promote your religion is not persecution. Any genuine examples of Christians being persecuted in America? Even anecdotally? And then if we get to the anecdotal stage, can we establish whether that’s something that can be considered enough to say that “Christians are persecuted in America”? Yes, you can go out and find stories about Christians being denied their religious freedom by the government in America. Or other faiths, or atheists. It happens. It is, however, very rare, and rarely severe. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/134 "2013-02-01T16:01:08Z")
Wait, they’re _not_ persecuted? Then what the hell am I supposed feed these lions? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/135 "2013-02-01T17:29:01Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If Muslims were the overwhelming majority of people in the US that would be a problem if the government tried to wipe Islam from the public square. Let’s try it in a majority Muslim country and see how they react. I bet it will be not pleasant! You’d lose the bet. Turkey has gone vastly farther in wiping “religion from the public square” than the US and it remains a stable democracy. Beyond that, a number of Arab countries without going as far as the US have drastically restricted the wearing of Hijabs and Burkas in public and often banned government employees and students from wearing them. I know there’s a tendency to think that most Muslim countries are theocracies like Iran or Saudi Arabia, but those are the exceptions not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/136 "2013-02-01T17:53:39Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes, you can go out and find stories about Christians being denied their religious freedom by the government in America. Or other faiths, or atheists. It happens. It is, however, very rare, and rarely severe. I’m curious what you consider to be ‘Christians being denied their religious freedom’, I’d like an example. > [@Shodan](#): > > Christians are persecuted in the US in the same sense that atheists are persecuted. Some Christians whine about it, just like some atheists whine about it. I’d sorta like to disagree with this. Persecution is too strong a word, to me it implies extreme measures, like being arrested just for being a certain religion. I don’t think Christians or atheists are being persecuted in this country. However, this comment makes it sound like atheists and Christians are on equal footing when it comes to antagonism, and that simply isn’t true. Atheists have to take much more crap than Christians on a daily basis. I’d like to think that this is obvious, but in case it isn’t I’d like to point out that [this](http://www.bored.com/billboards/images/atheist_billboard.jpg) is ok, but [this](http://unitedcor.org/chapter/cin/full-view/596/0) resulted in threats and was taken down. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/137 "2013-02-01T18:25:13Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > I’m curious what you consider to be ‘Christians being denied their religious freedom’, I’d like an example. Here are a few. > **[ACLU Defense of Religious Practice and Expression | American Civil Liberties...](https://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression)** Not all these cases apply (not all were won), and not all are Christians, but it’s a decent list. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/138 "2013-02-01T18:50:41Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Wait, they’re _not_ persecuted? Then what the hell am I supposed feed these lions? Scientologists. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/139 "2013-02-01T19:30:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Let’s try it in a majority Muslim country and see how they react. I bet it will be not pleasant! I don’t know the name of this fallacy, but it’s common in these discussion. It doesn’t matter a shit in a sandstorm what would happen in any other country. That’s not even close to being an argument of any kind. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Here are a few. > > [ACLU Defense of Religious Practice and Expression | American Civil Liberties Union](http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression) > > Not all these cases apply (not all were won), and not all are Christians, but it’s a decent list. A single violation of First Amendment rights is not necessarily an incident of persecution. Why don’t you list the ones that you think constitute persecution? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/140 "2013-02-01T19:38:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > A single violation of First Amendment rights is not necessarily an incident of persecution. Why don’t you list the ones that you think constitute persecution? I didn’t say it was persecution. Read the question I was asked please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=8)