# Are Christians in America persecuted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639 "2013-01-18T18:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![bahimes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@bahimes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahimes)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/161 "2013-02-06T12:58:35Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Unfortunately, yes. I could regale you with stories, oh, such stories, from my less-than-wonderful, yet wonderfully brief term as a member of a well-known organization I won’t name here. Hoo-boy, atheists can be as depressing and paranoid as Christians when in a group, let me tell ya. I left Mensa, too. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/162 "2013-02-06T13:11:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Asking someone to imagine something has nothing to do with wishing for it. If I ask you to imagine the flavor of ice cream with motor oil topping, it doesn’t mean I wish that I could have a bowl of it. I’m not sure if you’re seriously arguing that the song isn’t saying it would be good if there were no religion. But to be clear: it definitively is saying that it would be good if there were no religion. It’s not just saying “imagine if there were no religion,” it’s also asking you to imagine how awesome that would be. He goes on to say how in a world without countries or religion, there would be no hunger or greed, everyone would be as one, and everyone would share everything. He then goes on to invite the listener not just to “imagine” these things but to “join us,” i.e. make these things real. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/163 "2013-02-06T17:29:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > More importantly, has there been any resistance to taking them _off_ the books? Well, has anyone ever tried to? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/164 "2013-02-06T17:52:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re seriously arguing that the song isn’t saying it would be good if there were no religion. But to be clear: it definitively is saying that it would be good if there were no religion. It’s not just saying “imagine if there were no religion,” it’s also asking you to imagine how awesome that would be. He goes on to say how in a world without countries or religion, there would be no hunger or greed, everyone would be as one, and everyone would share everything. He then goes on to invite the listener not just to “imagine” these things but to “join us,” i.e. make these things real. So John Lenin was a Commie atheist, eh? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/165 "2013-02-06T17:59:38Z")
The song is incredibly clear that if you can imagine a world without religion it’d be better than this one. It speaks volumes for Christians’ exalted status in the U.S. that this is one of the strongest pieces of evidence for American Christian persecution…a 40-something year old song by a foreigner that makes them feel vaguely uncomfortable. (and BTW, it’s not even anti-Christian specifically, all religions get hit!) Wish I had it like that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/166 "2013-02-06T18:20:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So John Lenin was a Commie atheist, eh? Yep, he was a regular Vladimir Lennon. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/167 "2013-02-06T18:30:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So John Lenin was a Commie atheist, eh? I am dense… I don’t get your point. Can you help me out? ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/168 "2013-02-06T19:56:01Z")
Re constitutional prohibitions. These are not mere archaiac statutes. Following the US the US constitution, state constitutions are the highest legal authority within that state. Could any citizen demand that the Constitution be enforced? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/169 "2013-02-06T20:27:00Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > Re constitutional prohibitions. > > These are not mere archaiac statutes. Following the US the US constitution, state constitutions are the highest legal authority within that state. > > Could any citizen demand that the Constitution be enforced? Any part of a state constitution that violates the federal one is unenforcable. An atheist who was denied a right in one of those states could sue, and win, under the 1st and 14th amendments. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/170 "2013-02-06T20:28:31Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > Re constitutional prohibitions. > > These are not mere archaiac statutes. Following the US the US constitution, state constitutions are the highest legal authority within that state. > > Could any citizen demand that the Constitution be enforced? Would you like to be more specific? What does this have to do with the thread topic? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/171 "2013-02-06T20:30:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Any part of a state constitution that violates the federal one is unenforcable. > > An atheist who was denied a right in one of those states could sue, and win, under the 1st and 14th amendments. Has that ever happened, where a state consitution discriminated against atheism in particular and a lawsuit was successful? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/172 "2013-02-06T21:00:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Has that ever happened, where a state consitution discriminated against atheism in particular and a lawsuit was successful? My good friend Mr. Google says: > **[Torcaso v. Watkins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torcaso_v._Watkins)** > > Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court reaffirmed that the United States Constitution prohibits states and the federal government from requiring any kind of religious test for public office, in this case as a notary public. > In the early 1960s, the Governor of Maryland appointed Roy Torcaso (November 13, 1910 – June 9, 2007) as a notary public. At the time, the Constitution of Maryland required "a declaration of belief in the existence... > [@](#): > > In the early 1960s, the Governor of Maryland appointed Roy Torcaso as a notary public. At the time, the Maryland Constitution required “a declaration of belief in the existence of God” (Maryland Declaration of Rights, Article 37) in order for a person to hold “any office of profit or trust in this State” (ibid.). > > Torcaso, an atheist, refused to make such a statement, and his appointment was consequently revoked. Torcaso, believing his constitutional rights to freedom of religious expression had been infringed, filed suit in a Maryland Circuit Court, only to be rebuffed; the Circuit Court rejected his claim, and the Maryland Court of Appeals held that the requirement for a declaration of belief in God as a qualification for office was self-executing. > > Torcaso took the matter to the United States Supreme Court, where it was heard on April 24, 1961. > > The Court unanimously found that Maryland’s requirement for a person holding public office to state a belief in God violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/173 "2013-02-06T21:05:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > My good friend Mr. Google says: > > [Torcaso v. Watkins - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torcaso_v._Watkins) Thank you-excellent! Not being a lawyer, did this Supreme Court action automatically mean that all such state constitutional requirements/exclusions were then invalid, or did it only apply to Maryland? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/174 "2013-02-06T21:08:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you-excellent! > Not being a lawyer, did this Supreme Court action automatically mean that all such state constitutional requirements/exclusions were then invalid, or did it only apply to Maryland? Also not being a lawyer, I can’t say. I think that it does in practice, since if another state tried this, it would know that it would also lose in court. But a state might try to argue that it’s situation is different for some reason, and try. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/175 "2013-02-10T14:20:16Z")
[http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/09/my-take-a-word-to-christians-be-nice/](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/09/my-take-a-word-to-christians-be-nice/) Interesting article on this subject. The author, a Pastor, writes that people who are Christian and then act like assholes have no right to claim they are “persecuted.” It’s not martyrdom as much as the obvious and predictable consequence of being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/176 "2013-02-10T21:00:49Z")
That pastor should apply to be an SDMB mod. I think we’d like him. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/177 "2013-02-11T06:35:46Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > [http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/09/my-take-a-word-to-christians-be-nice/](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/09/my-take-a-word-to-christians-be-nice/) > > Interesting article on this subject. The author, a Pastor, writes that people who are Christian and then act like assholes have no right to claim they are “persecuted.” It’s not martyrdom as much as the obvious and predictable consequence of being a jerk. We have had a couple of [del]Christians[/del] jerks like that, here, in the past year, that I got into arguments with. They insisted that I, an ex-Christian, should decide who is and isn’t a ‘true Christian’, based on their own criteria, rather than mine. They were both trolling for ‘persecution’ based on their Christianity. They were both wrong. They were both just being assholes. One got banned for obvious trolling. the other just went elsewhere, when he couldn’t get his persecution fix from me, or anyone else here. Judgmental assholes like them started me on my journey away from Christianity. I wasn’t sad to see them go away… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/178 "2013-02-11T06:46:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am dense… I don’t get your point. Can you help me out? > [@Frylock](#): > > He goes on to say how in a world without countries or religion, there would be no hunger or greed, everyone would be as one, and everyone would share everything. He then goes on to invite the listener not just to “imagine” these things but to “join us,” i.e. make these things real. “You say you want a revolution . . .” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/179 "2013-02-11T06:49:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Also not being a lawyer, I can’t say. I think that it does in practice, since if another state tried this, it would know that it would also lose in court. But a state might try to argue that it’s situation is different for some reason, and try. As a lawyer, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639/180 "2013-02-11T12:11:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “You say you want a revolution . . .” Now _there’s_ [a song where most never got the point of the lyrics.](http://www.lyrics007.com/The%20Beatles%20Lyrics/Revolution%20Lyrics.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/647639.md?page=10)