# Are circus elephants abused? How sensitive are elephants to pain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590 "2011-11-02T04:22:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/41 "2011-11-05T00:40:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, why are there still working elephants in Asia? I would’ve thought that by now that they would have been replaced, by machinery even Third World countries can generally afford. I mean, even in India or China or Indochina, who gets around on horses any more? > [@Marley23](#): > > In the case of Thailand, logging was banned 20 years ago. The problem is elephants live a long time and some families have owned elephants for a few generations, so they are trying to make a living and pay for all the food the elephants eat. So they’re willing to take the risk of breaking the law by logging or taking them across the border into Burma, and they also create the risk the elephants will be injured while they’re working or step on a landmine and get crippled or killed. When they don’t do that, they’ll sometimes try to train the elephants to perform, which is less than ideal because elephants are classified as livestock and treated accordingly - so not everyone understands the cruelty involved. Street begging is also illegal, although I’m not sure the laws are fully enforced- but it means these people hide their elephants on the outskirts of the city or in dumps and the elephants don’t get enough to eat. I used to see a fair number of elephants in Bangkok, but I’ve not seen any for a while. Yes, it’s illegal to bring them into the city to beg, but many times the owners are left with no option. The government banned logging but then wouldn’t provide support even though elephants are considered a national treasure. Except for maybe Malaysia, the logging concesions in neighboring countries – at least in the areas closest to the border – are held by Thais, so they hire Thais to take their elephants across the border. There are still many areas that are not accessible to machinery. And in the illegal trade that still occurs in Thailand, you want to get far back away from roads to avoid detection. One Einstein in the city government one time famously suggested implanting microchips under elephants’ skins as a means of tracking them across the city. Uh huh. Personally, I don’t think you need a microchip to track an elephant across Bangkok. The idea died a quiet death. But whenever the police decide to crack down, they’ll round up the elephants, charge the mahouts/owners a fine and deport the lot to upcountry, I think usually to Ayutthaya province, where there’s some sort of royal elephant kraal. But again, I’ve not seen any elephants in the city for a long time, maybe a couple of years. Which is good. Bangkok’s environment is barely tolerable for humans. They would take them around and charge tourists less than a buck to feed the elephants a small bag of something. Usually bananas, but sometimes it was only cucumbers, because those are cheaper, but I always considered offering cucumbers a sign that they didn’t really care about the beast. I never partook and always commented to the mahouts that they should not be in the city. One bar owner in Soi Cowboy said one afternoon, a mahout was passing by his bar with an elephant, and he (the owner) offered to bring out a hose to let the elephant take a drink. The mahout refused unless the bar owner paid for the privillege! So he did, and he said that elephant drank for a long, long time. This is a harsh environment for the beasts. > [@Marley23](#): > > Yes. Something like 50 or 60 percent of the forests had been cut down by that point, which I believe was making the floods a lot worse in addition to all the other effects you would expect from mass deforestation. Forests are also the preferred habitat for elephants, so it was bad for them as well. I’ve heard 80% of the forest has gone, but I’m always suspicious when I hear 80% for anything. The 80-20 dichotomy seems a little too commonly thrown around. > [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I worked in the circus at one time, and although I wasn’t involved directly with animals I did spend some time around them and the trainers. Having read the linked article about Scylla training horses, I’d say there are a lot of similarities. > > An elephant isn’t going to do something unless it agrees to. While it seems to be true that some abuse has occurred in circuses, I have a hard time believing that it’s the norm. In my experience, it was unheard of. The trainers felt there was no way to beat / abuse these animals into cooperating because the animal would simply kill them. Are you really going systematically to abuse an elephant or tiger and then lock yourself into a cage with them every night? You would never survive. > > There’s also the fact that these animals are expensive and represent the performer’s livelihood. I’ve never met a trainer who was eager to mistreat them. > > That being said, there are two issues here: > > 1. **Some training methods can look harsh, but probably aren’t.** I think this is similar to Scylla’s article in which he uses a riding crop. I wouldn’t enjoy watching a horse get repeatedly whacked with one, but it doesn’t do the animal great harm either. > > I don’t have an opinion on the use of electrical prods with elephants because I don’t know enough about them. It could be the same thing as the crop to a horse, or it might not. I don’t have enough information. I think the bullhook is similar to the crop, and doesn’t cause much harm. > > I’ve seen incredible acts of trust between elephants and people, like elephants standing still and allowing a crowd of people with children to gather around and touch it. I have a really hard time believing that can be accomplished through mistreatment. Rather, the training I’ve seen was usually cooperative with the animal. Again, if a ten ton animal really doesn’t want to do something, it probably won’t. > > 1. **There are assholes in the world, and some work in circuses.** The guy in the video seems to be one of them. I never ran into anyone like that during my time in the circus, for what it’s worth. > > I’m open to new information on this, but as I say, my experience doesn’t hold up the claim that elephants and other animals are regularly abused in circuses. The animals I’ve seen were always well cared for and seemed happy to work with people. I agree with a lot of that (although I don’t know anything about circuses per se). Unfortunately, there have been bad instances of elephant abuse in this country. But many mahouts do care about their beasts. While I don’t agree with the use of the elephant goad, that big hook, I’m not sure how much worse it is than a horse’s riding crop. And an elephant engaged in trekking – that is, taking people for rides through the country – is not necessarily being abused. I know a place in Pai district of Mae Hong Son province up North that keeps elephants for this purpose, and the lady who runs it now is the third or fourth generation of her family. She grew up playing with the beasts; some of them were children at the same time she was. They roam free at night but stick close to the camp because that’s where the food is. The photo in my user info is with one of the elephants, name of Phanom. For that particular one, her mahout took her there from the other side of the country. She’s a little skittish around traffic, having been run into by a car back in the day, and the Pai environment seems to suit her better. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/42 "2011-11-05T00:46:29Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I used to see a fair number of elephants in Bangkok, but I’ve not seen any for a while. Yes, it’s illegal to bring them into the city to beg, but many times the owners are left with no option. The government banned logging but then wouldn’t provide support even though elephants are considered a national treasure. I did wonder how it came to pass that the elephants were put out of a job (so to speak) and the government didn’t do anything about the hardship that would create for them and for their mahouts and owners. I don’t know how practical it would have been for the government to buy the elephants or even arrange partnerships, but something should have been done. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/43 "2011-11-05T03:56:28Z")
Has no one ever tried to get the Thai government to set up a national Elephant Sanctuary? If we can have one here . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/44 "2011-11-05T03:59:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Which likely also means they’re drunk. When a ten-ton animal gets drunk, the results are usually not pretty. How not pretty? He turns pink! 🙂 Wait . . . ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/45 "2011-11-05T11:22:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Has no one ever tried to get the Thai government to set up a national Elephant Sanctuary? If we can have one here . . . The idea has been suggested more than once. But things move slowly over here, particularly if the authorities can’t see how they can pocket any money from the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/46 "2011-11-11T23:42:17Z")
I was at this freak show one time, and I saw these Siamese elephants… They was joined at the end of their trunks like that… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/47 "2011-11-14T16:49:22Z")
On a related note. They sell elephant rides at RennFest. It goes to paying for an elephant preserve. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/48 "2011-11-14T16:59:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > On a related note. They sell elephant rides at RennFest. It goes to paying for an elephant preserve. That’s a little like selling hamburgers to raise money for PETA. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/49 "2011-11-14T17:33:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a little like selling hamburgers to raise money for PETA. Do you consider riding horses to be different from riding elephants? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/50 "2011-11-14T18:23:43Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Do you consider riding horses to be different from riding elephants? I don’t know very much about horses. My understanding - again, from conversations with people and not studies - is that elephants have strong neck muscles but their spines are not able to support much weight. I’ve been told that the back of an Asian elephant can support 200 or 300 pounds of weight, and considering that in a lot of situations you’ll have two riders plus equipment (‘trekking seats’ are popular in Thailand), I think that limit is easily exceeded. So over the life of an elephant I think that can do considerable harm, and there’s the question of how the elephant that’s giving the rides has been trained and is being treated. That’s why I made that comparison. It seems like a misguided fundraiser because they may be harming an elephant to raise money for an elephant sanctuary. I don’t know if there are similar weight limits for horses. Horses have also been domesticated and bred to enhance their ability to do things like carry people; elephants haven’t, although they’ve been used in war and other areas. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/51 "2011-11-14T18:32:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t know if there are similar weight limits for horses. Horses have also been domesticated and bred to enhance their ability to do things like carry people; elephants haven’t, although they’ve been used in war and other areas. I can’t Google much about that. Asian elephants have been ridden for hundreds if no thousands of years, though. At least as far back as Hannibal. I do believe the Asian and African sanctuaries tend to be much less PITAsized than those in the USA and Europe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/52 "2011-11-14T18:34:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Horses have also been domesticated and bred to enhance their ability to do things like carry people; elephants haven’t, although they’ve been used in war and other areas. 😕 You’re talking about elephants whose ancestors have been domesticated by humans for thousands of years. They were never selectively bred?! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/53 "2011-11-14T18:47:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Asian elephants have been ridden for hundreds if no thousands of years, though. At least as far back as Hannibal. I know that, but I think it goes without saying that Hannibal wasn’t particularly concerned about the long term health of the war elephants. [I’ll grant you that this may be a biased source but it’s a cite, at least](http://ecohearth.com/eco-zine/travel-and-leisure/1675-never-ride-an-elephant.html): > [@](#): > > 1. The strongest part of the elephant is its neck, not its back. Yes, adult elephants are massively powerful beings. However , their strength lies in their necks, the axiom of motion for their heads and trunks. When an elephant wears a chain around its neck, it probably feels much like when you wear a large necklace. But when you place a 100-pound seat on its fragile spine with three 150-pound humans in that seat, it probably feels more like tying a 30-pound weight to the outside of your knee. Your knee is not meant to hold weight like that and neither is an elephant’s vulnerable spine. Over time, your knee will tear. And the elephant’s spine, over time, tears as well. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 You’re talking about elephants whose ancestors have been domesticated by humans for thousands of years. They were never selectively bred?! In terms of being bred for suitability around people and for other characteristics, my understanding is that they haven’t been and that there’s no particular difference between elephants in captivity and wild ones. They’re just trained. Between the fact that they have very long gestation periods, don’t mature quickly, and live a long time, and don’t mature quickly, and that the males are crazy when they’re in musth, I can believe it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/54 "2011-11-15T01:31:24Z")
Apropos of nothing, [here’s](http://www.king5.com/community/blogs/the-pet-dish/Elephant-133303978.html) a story about an elephant at the Elephant Sanctuary grieving over her dead dog-friend. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/55 "2011-11-15T01:47:09Z")
I’m sure there are people who train and keep elephants humanely, but I suspect that there are a lot who rely on ‘traditional’ methods of animal handling. Things I would suggest to ensure compliance. Teach them learned helplessness. Start when the elephant is very young. Use pain to gain compliance. Do not allow them any escape from the pain. Heavy chains are useful. Continue to use whatever tool is necessary to inflict pain throughout the animal’s life. Keep them in sub-optimal conditions. Stressful living conditions, lack of sleep, long journeys without adequate food, water or rest. Feed them with inadequate or inappropriate food, so they’re always malnourished, or perhaps just a little malnourished for a very long time. Ensure their housing is not comfortable so they never really rest or relax. How much fight do you have in you when you’re sick, tired and hungry? Every so often circus elephants rampage. You gotta wonder what pushes them to that. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/56 "2011-11-15T01:47:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Apropos of nothing, [here’s](http://www.king5.com/community/blogs/the-pet-dish/Elephant-133303978.html) a story about an elephant at the Elephant Sanctuary grieving over her dead dog-friend. The sanctuary in Hohenwald Tennessee let a dying elephant lie on the ground for days. If an elephant cannot stand, its internal organs are crushed and it begins an agonizing death. In contrast, Willie, the star of the Riddle Sanctuary in Arkansas, was euthanized in a matter of hours when he went down. It makes good press for the PETA leaning folks to have the other elephants see her off to the Rainbow Bridge, but she was in agony for far too long there on the ground. The story was all over their website some years ago. I can’t find a cite now. And I’m pretty sure Tarra stepped on Bella, just as Winkie stomped on her caretaker [Joanna Burke.](http://www.elephants.com/joanna/JoannaBurke_InMemory.php) [Hohenwald](http://www.elephants.com/2006News.php) [Riddles](http://www.elephantsanctuary.org/default2.asp) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/57 "2011-11-15T01:54:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > And I’m pretty sure Tarra stepped on Bella . . . The story says the dog was killed by coyotes. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/58 "2011-11-15T02:23:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The story says the dog was killed by coyotes. Perhaps so. If they were indeed inseparable, I would think the elephant could kill a bunch of coyotes threatening her friend. Perhaps the dog went off by herself, as dogs will do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/59 "2011-11-15T02:26:31Z")
> [@brainstall](#): > > I’m sure there are people who train and keep elephants humanely, but I suspect that there are a lot who rely on ‘traditional’ methods of animal handling.. You gotta wonder, especially when a mahout ate food in front of a hungry elephant in a truck and she picked him up and threw him out onto the road. > [@brainstall](#): > > Every so often circus elephants rampage. You gotta wonder what pushes them to that. Males in must do that. I recall a story where policemen pursued the elephant and shot him several hundred times with .38s before he died. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/60 "2011-11-15T02:37:42Z")
If you are thinking about an elephant named Tyke that rampaged in Hawaii, that was a female. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590.md?page=4)