# Are circus elephants abused? How sensitive are elephants to pain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590 "2011-11-02T04:22:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/61 "2011-11-15T02:42:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Males in must do that. I recall a story where policemen pursued the elephant and shot him several hundred times with .38s before he died. [This one?](http://www.george-orwell.org/Shooting_an_Elephant/0.html) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/62 "2011-11-15T02:50:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [This one?](http://www.george-orwell.org/Shooting_an_Elephant/0.html) No, it was in the United States and may have indeed been a female. Trying to manage males is very difficult. If I may digress, the only male that has ever been at Hohenwald was very ill and had been castrated. He died soon after arrival. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/63 "2011-11-15T03:03:49Z")
That incident and more, starting in the 50’s > **[incidents.pdf](https://www.pawsweb.org/incidents.pdf)** > > 260.64 KB Pretty depressing reading, really. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/64 "2011-11-15T03:05:12Z")
> [@brainstall](#): > > Things I would suggest to ensure compliance. Teach them learned helplessness. Start when the elephant is very young. Use pain to gain compliance. Do not allow them any escape from the pain. Heavy chains are useful. Continue to use whatever tool is necessary to inflict pain throughout the animal’s life. > > Keep them in sub-optimal conditions. Stressful living conditions, lack of sleep, long journeys without adequate food, water or rest. Feed them with inadequate or inappropriate food, so they’re always malnourished, or perhaps just a little malnourished for a very long time. Ensure their housing is not comfortable so they never really rest or relax. And then have them perform in front of people under bright lights? Sure, nobody will notice that… [QUOTE=brainstall] How much fight do you have in you when you’re sick, tired and hungry? [/quote] If you’re an elephant, more than enough to kill a puny human. So I say again, this line of reasoning just doesn’t ring true to me. My experience in circuses doesn’t bear it out, and it makes no logical sense. Who could possibly be assured of trust in an animal that big, that could kill the trainer or audience members on a whim, after systematically abusing it? [QUOTE=brainstall] Every so often circus elephants rampage. You gotta wonder what pushes them to that. [/QUOTE] Every so often airplanes crash too. Like elephant rampages, they seem to be fairly unusual. Circuses have elephants performing up close to audiences all the time, so I have a hard time believing this is a common occurrence. EDIT: I came across that pdf file too. In itself, I’m not sure how to consider it. A fair number of the incidents reported there had nothing to do with elephant “rampages” hurting people. It was put out by an organization that purports to rescue animals from inappropriate exploitation. I’ve not heard of them before, so I don’t know of their reputation for accurate information. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/65 "2011-11-15T03:05:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, it was in the United States and may have indeed been a female. Trying to manage males is very difficult. If I may digress, the only male that has ever been at Hohenwald was very ill and had been castrated. He died soon after arrival. Do the females seem to feel the lack of males? ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/66 "2011-11-15T03:38:18Z")
]And then have them perform in front of people under bright lights? Sure, nobody will notice that… _Can most people tell the difference between a robustly healthy elephant a not so healthy one? Can you tell if an elephant is arthritic and in pain, just by looking at it?_ If you’re an elephant, more than enough to kill a puny human. So I say again, this line of reasoning just doesn’t ring true to me. My experience in circuses doesn’t bear it out, and it makes no logical sense. Who could possibly be assured of trust in an animal that big, that could kill the trainer or audience members on a whim, after systematically abusing it? \*Because humans are arrogant. Because the training methods have shown them that do have control over and compliance from the elephants, most of the time. I mentioned learned helplessness. It’s a powerful tool. \* Every so often airplanes crash too. Like elephant rampages, they seem to be fairly unusual. Circuses have elephants performing up close to audiences all the time, so I have a hard time believing this is a common occurrence. EDIT: I came across that pdf file too. In itself, I’m not sure how to consider it. A fair number of the incidents reported there had nothing to do with elephant “rampages” hurting people. It was put out by an organization that purports to rescue animals from inappropriate exploitation. I’ve not heard of them before, so I don’t know of their reputation for accurate information. \*I would think that all the incidents in that pdf can be verified. Whether their interpretation of how and why they occurred is correct may be debatable, but I tend to think not. I’m just a bleeding heart animal lover, and you have direct experience with circuses. Then again, I doubt that any animal trainer is going to explicitly spell out how they get the results they do if any cruelty is involved, which in my experience with dogs and horses can be pretty rampant. It’s all swept under the rug, and what gets seen and talked about is the positive training and not what goes on behind the barn when no one is looking.\* ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/67 "2011-11-15T03:52:06Z")
Do performing elephants (or other performing animals, for that matter) seem to take pride in their performance and appreciate applause, like the human peformers do? Serious question, I’ve always wondered. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/68 "2011-11-15T03:59:33Z")
> [@brainstall](#): > > - Because the training methods have shown them that do have control over and compliance from the elephants, most of the time. I mentioned learned helplessness. It’s a powerful tool.\* As I said in my first post, I’m willing to change my views on this subject if it is shown to me definitively that elephants and other performing animals are routinely abused and treated poorly. I love animals too, and hold no allegiance to circuses despite having worked in them at times. But nobody has shown me that. Not when I was there, and not since. All I’ve seen is isolated incidents and a whole lot of supposition. An elephant isn’t a Schnauzer, physically or in temperament. They can kill someone who annoys them, but most of the time they’re not inclined to. In my experience, elephants genuinely enjoy working with people. If they didn’t, I fail to see how they could be intimidated into performing reliably, especially when up close with spectators. In this way, there is a big difference between a circus elephant and one being used for logging in Asia. The performing elephant is seen by many people, and I would think abuse would be obvious to at least some. It can’t take place during the show, that’s for certain. So we’re left with the possibility that elephants are beaten and abused in private, only to then show their best behavior under the lights at showtime? I don’t think so. The trainers I knew loved their animals. The animals seemed stimulated, and I never felt endangered around them (apart from the normal caution one uses around all exotic animals). I’ve been around animals that have been abused, and there is a very different vibe there. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/69 "2011-11-15T04:05:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do performing elephants (or other performing animals, for that matter) seem to take pride in their performance and appreciate applause, like the human peformers do? Serious question, I’ve always wondered. I don’t think they enjoy performing in the way we do, getting approval from an audience. For them, it seems to be a combination of approval from the trainer and satisfaction from doing challenging tasks. Elephants are intelligent. They seemed to enjoy learning and doing things, and working with humans when well socialized. Different animal, but I saw the same thing in performing dogs. One trainer and his dog that I knew very well (I shared a house with them for years) demonstrated this unmistakably. This dog was never rewarded with food. His reward was positive attention from his trainer / owner / companion. Sometimes I’d look after the dog if the trainer was away, and if he didn’t perform for a while the dog would begin doing tricks for whomever was around. He would then get attention, and he loved it. He was a very happy animal, and very intelligent and perceptive. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/70 "2011-11-15T04:09:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t know very much about horses. My understanding - again, from conversations with people and not studies - is that elephants have strong neck muscles but their spines are not able to support much weight. I’ve been told that the back of an Asian elephant can support 200 or 300 pounds of weight, and considering that in a lot of situations you’ll have two riders plus equipment (‘trekking seats’ are popular in Thailand), I think that limit is easily exceeded. That’s quite true. Elephants should not be overloaded on their backs. Without looking back over the thread, I don’t think elephant polo has been brought up. I can tell you that there are very strict rules governing elephant treatment, and they’re not kept in play more than 15 minutes at a time, after which they’re taken off and given a nice shower under a water tank. They seem to really enjoy it too. I swear they seem to know what’s going on and will chase after the ball themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/71 "2011-11-15T05:47:41Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > That’s quite true. Elephants should not be overloaded on their backs. Would it be better to seat the howdah on the neck? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/72 "2011-11-15T05:48:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Would it be better to seat the howdah on the neck? Best to limit one rider per elephant in addition to the mahout, who is constantly hopping up and off the head and neck. I prefer bareback myself, but even then I’m usually on the shoulders. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > That’s quite true. Elephants should not be overloaded on their backs. > > Without looking back over the thread, I don’t think elephant polo has been brought up. I can tell you that there are very strict rules governing elephant treatment, and they’re not kept in play more than 15 minutes at a time, after which they’re taken off and given a nice shower under a water tank. They seem to really enjoy it too. I swear they seem to know what’s going on and will chase after the ball themselves. I would add also that the notion that riding an elephant necessarily equals cruelty is too over the top. I could not go along with that. As with many things, it comes down to how it’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/73 "2011-11-15T06:07:52Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I would add also that the notion that riding an elephant necessarily equals cruelty is too over the top. I could not go along with that. As with many things, it comes down to how it’s done. I wasn’t trying to say that riding them is inherently cruel. I may not have chosen my words precisely, but I was trying to say that it can be harmful depending on how it’s done, and if it’s not done carefully or if the elephant isn’t treated well, then it’s a poor choice for a fundraiser. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/74 "2011-11-15T06:13:42Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Best to limit one rider per elephant in addition to the mahout, who is constantly hopping up and off the head and neck. Why? Does an elephant need to be led from the front? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/75 "2011-11-15T06:24:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I wasn’t trying to say that riding them is inherently cruel. I may not have chosen my words precisely, but I was trying to say that it can be harmful depending on how it’s done, and if it’s not done carefully or if the elephant isn’t treated well, then it’s a poor choice for a fundraiser. Right, I think we’re in agreement here. I’d like to think the elephant keepers there knew what they were doing though. Hopefully so. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? Does an elephant need to be led from the front? Sometimes the mahout walks, sometimes hops on to ride. But the elephant won’t know where to go if the mahout is not leading him or her somehow. The mahouts tend to be wiry little guys who can scramble up and down at will, but sometimes the elephant will also crook his or her leg to form a step. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/76 "2011-11-15T06:40:03Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Sometimes the mahout walks, sometimes hops on to ride. But the elephant won’t know where to go if the mahout is not leading him or her somehow. 😕 Why can’t an elephant be steered like a horse? It’s smarter than a horse, isn’t it? (Or is that the reason?) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/77 "2011-11-15T13:16:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s smarter than a horse, isn’t it? (Or is that the reason?) Could be. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/78 "2011-11-15T22:42:20Z")
Some insight from an [elephant trainer](http://www.nagalandpost.com/ShowStory.aspx?npoststoryiden=UzEwMjMzMTY%3D-doiy9MFNaXM%3D) in South Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/79 "2011-11-21T14:45:35Z")
More on the ankus or hook can be found on the [Facts About Elephants](http://www.elephantstay.com/Facts-about-elephants.html) page on the [Elephantstay](http://www.elephantstay.com/) website. Elephantstay is a nonprofit organization in Ayutthaya province, about 90 minutes north of Bangkok, that is run by two Australian ladies, one of them a former senior zookeeper at the Melbourne Zoo. It has a good reputation and has been hit hard by the flooding. I can’t copy the page for some reason, but the part about the ankus, or _takaw_ as it appears to be called in Thai, is toward the bottom, the penultimate note. This is pretty much my experience. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590/80 "2011-11-21T17:32:50Z")
Ya know, I bet, with just a little genetic tweaking, we can get elephants to eat meat, hunt in packs, and fly. (Why, you ask?! It’s Mad Science! Why **not?!)** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-circus-elephants-abused-how-sensitive-are-elephants-to-pain/601590.md?page=5)