# Are climate-change activists not extreme enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876 "2019-06-01T15:26:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/41 "2019-06-10T15:44:13Z")
As of now, it looks like all the actions of climate-change activists amount to is setting themselves up for “We told you and you would not listen” decades down the road. (Not that I’m saying that that’s what climate-change activists _ **want** _, but rather, that, realistically, it appears to be the fate they/we are headed towards.) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/42 "2019-06-10T21:01:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Oh goody, another arbitrary rule designed to avoid debate. Nicely done. Pot, meet kettle. You’re happy to make an arbitrary dismissal like ‘virtue signaling’, but boy howdy, you sure can’t take it yourself. > [@](#): > > Take this Pride thing. The advancement of gay rights has always hinged on getting the right to accept it. The right resists progress kicking and screaming. [Suicidally so](https://www.claremont.org/crb/basicpage/the-flight-93-election/), if necessary. It is hilarious to have been alive to see the right hysterically resisting every effort to secure civil rights for anyone, only to see them pretending barely a generation later that it only happened when they jumped on board. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/43 "2019-06-10T21:15:42Z")
According to the World Bank, the average Mexican produces 3.9 metric tons of CO2 a year while the average American produces 16.9 metric tons. Once a a Mexican or Central American arrives in the USA, their carbon footprint increases exponentially. If climate change activists truly believed in Global Warming, they would fully support Trump’s wall and any other measures to stop legal and illegal immigration. Otherwise, they are disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/44 "2019-06-10T21:44:02Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > According to the World Bank, the average Mexican produces 3.9 metric tons of CO2 a year while the average American produces 16.9 metric tons. Once a a Mexican or Central American arrives in the USA, their carbon footprint increases exponentially. We know their carbon footprint doesn’t change because conservatives assure us that Mexicans don’t become Americans when they cross the border. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/45 "2019-06-10T22:06:16Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > According to the World Bank, the average Mexican produces 3.9 metric tons of CO2 a year while the average American produces 16.9 metric tons. Once a a Mexican or Central American arrives in the USA, their carbon footprint increases exponentially. > > If climate change activists truly believed in Global Warming, they would fully support Trump’s wall and any other measures to stop legal and illegal immigration. Otherwise, they are disingenuous. Too late, I already pointed out what a big liar Trump is, not only for denying the issue, but also that he is fooling many with the wall, Trump is not using that political support he has among the right into making new nuclear plants that can help a lot with the issue but instead he continues to waste taxpayers money into a useless wall. (BTW that steel and concrete used to build the useless wall has a hefty carbon footprint too) But never mind that, the other point here is that you missed the memo: in evidence cited before, cities that have more immigrants are the ones with the smallest carbon footprints. So to begin with, nativists that try to be “neophyte” environmentalists need to acknowledge that environmentalists have already looked at the impact. So you need to check a past tread like this one: > **[Are environmentalists cowards on immigration?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=612003)** > > It seems to me that they might be. Where is the Sierra Club on this issue? In fairness, I can see they’re torn like this guy between their concern for the environment and being accused of prejudice, but surely they can make their case on a... On that thread I mentioned this about the contrarian nativists leaders that attempted and failed to put a wedge between environmentalists groups by misusing the issue of immigration: (hence the comment of you not getting the memo) "What I conclude in the end is that the real cowardice is in the efforts to divide the environmentalist movement with what amounts to be really a cheap shot. The reality is that virtually all conservatives in office that oppose immigration also oppose doing anything about CO2 emissions, worse, they claim that there is no problem at all. Until I see any brave efforts by those anti-immigrant organizations to pressure republican leaders to do something about the main causes of the big carbon footprint that the US has, It is clear to me that they are indeed just doing a real coward thing by continuing to accuse the ones that have the least to blame, the immigrants." In essence that thread shows what others that are contrarians are falling for (and one nativist poster in that thread was seen to end up as a Fascist in a later thread), first they become nativists, then fake environmentalists, then they end up as Holocaust deniers. Please clean up your sources of information before falling down in the pit of their sorry propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/46 "2019-06-11T18:32:20Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The right resists progress kicking and screaming. [Suicidally so](https://www.claremont.org/crb/basicpage/the-flight-93-election/), if necessary. It is hilarious to have been alive to see the right hysterically resisting every effort to secure civil rights for anyone, only to see them pretending barely a generation later that it only happened when they jumped on board. I know you were talking to Sam, but I wanted to comment in this article. How did the Flight 93 election work out? They stormed the cockpit and got the idiot in charge. What do we get? Hm, let’s see, trillion dollar deficits thanks to tax cuts, 89% of which go to the top 1%. Obamacare… not repealed, just McCain blamed for the failure. Infrastructure… not addressed. Migrants? Yay, they are basically being tortured! Kids in cages, families separated, and righties still won’t acknowledge that Obama actually deported more people ( I’ll let others speculate why that is). The fierce denial of racism while taking the explicitly racist stance that immigrants tend to vote Dem since the Pubs simply won’t. abandon. their. racist. policies. towards. them. Ooo, so unfair! So global leftist tide of brown people! And my favorite point of all, that Trump and his GOP somehow represent “what has counted as knowledge in the West for millennia” and also the primal scream of “I WANT TO LIVE!!!1!” Yeah, that’s why we get the bottomlessly ignorant position of climate change denial, supported by zero evidence, which if not changed is going to result in the deaths of just about all of your grandchildren. I am not sure if educated and informed people are being extreme enough. But obviously there is a mountain of horseshit to plow through before we can even start a conversation with these poor suckers who have bought into the propaganda. Rush the cockpit or… There will be no tax cuts for the wealthy!! :eek: :eek: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/47 "2019-06-15T04:50:15Z")
This article had some good discussion about alarmism among climate change activists: [Vox - Will climate change kill everyone — or just lots and lots of people?](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/13/18660548/climate-change-human-civilization-existential-risk) > [@](#): > > Is climate change going to end human civilization for good, and so soon that we may as well not bother saving for retirement? > > That’s the theory put forward in a recent viral Vice post: “New Report Warns ‘High Likelihood of Human Civilization Coming to an End’ Within 30 Years.’” > > The Vice story summed up a new report from the Breakthrough National Centre for Climate Restoration, an Australian think tank, arguing that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change analysis of the impacts of climate change understates how much harm it’ll do, and that in reality we face something much worse, with runaway feedback effects amplifying the initial warming until the Earth is “largely uninhabitable.” It doesn’t actually argue that the world will end in 30 years, but it suggests we’ll reach the tipping point by then. > > The story went up on Vice with an orange-tinged, haunting illustration of the Statue of Liberty submerged to the neck by rising seas. The post was shared more than 70,000 times on Facebook and left readers terrified, despairing, and sharing doubts about whether it’s ethical to have children. > > The Breakthrough report — and the media coverage of it — frustrated many climate scientists. In a detailed response, six researchers argued that the report overstates the risks from climate change, and that subsequent reporting overstated it even further. The fact is that even the most pessimistic reports, evaluated responsibly, don’t suggest climate change will end human civilization, much less within our lifetimes. (Don’t stop saving for retirement.) Vice later altered the headline to “New Report Warns ‘High Likelihood Of Human Civilization Coming To An End’ Starting Within 30 Years’ — and even published a rebuttal. > > But the Vice piece tapped into what’s actually been a long-running and sometimes contentious conversation about the climate crisis — specifically, about whether it’s merely just devastating or in fact an existential risk to humanity. … ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/48 "2019-06-15T05:31:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This article had some good discussion about alarmism among climate change activists: [Vox - Will climate change kill everyone — or just lots and lots of people?](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/13/18660548/climate-change-human-civilization-existential-risk) So, yeah, lots and lots of people dying will be good… /s As the article ends with: > [@](#): > > So where does this all leave us? It’s worthwhile to look into the worst-case scenarios, and even to highlight and emphasize them. But it’s important to accurately represent current climate consensus along the way. It’s hard to see how we solve a problem we have widespread misapprehensions about in either direction, and when a warning is overstated or inaccurate, it may sow more confusion than inspiration. > > Climate change won’t kill us all. That matters. Yet it’s one of the biggest challenges ahead of us,\*\* and the results of our failure to act will be devastating.\*\* That message — the most accurate message we’ve got — will have to stand on its own. And as noted before, I do stand by what I said that not pointing out at the plausible worse scenarios has led to a lot of complacency that has allowed worse scenarios to become plausible. And, a lot of that complacency has taken place thanks to the contrarian propaganda. And now we see the results, now bad scenarios are more likely thanks to the past inaction when more optimistic scenarios were the ones that were allowed to be talked about. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/49 "2019-06-15T12:09:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The left needs the right to be able to pass sweeping climate change legislation. What they should be engaged in is outreach - trying to widen the tent and appeal to the people who currently oppose climate policy. Instead, they seem hell-bent on narrowing their support as much as they can. If support for climate change policy requires that people also support universal income, free college education, 70% tax rates and a bunch of other left wing dream items, they are automatically excluding the right’s support and feeding in to the belief that climate change is just a stalking horse for a left-wing power grab. People in favor of gay rights should never express an opinion on climate change? Someone interested in tax policy needs to shut up about climate change? People who want to mitigate climate change need to shut up about all other political issues? I’ll guess that your point isn’t really so nonsensical, but it sure sounds like it. Give the GOP credit for one thing: _A single issue_: **Stupidity**. _Scientists are stupid; liberals are stupid; non-Christians are stupid; gun control is stupid; foreigners are stupid; government workers and every President before Trump are stupid._ A single versatile message! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/50 "2019-06-16T17:31:54Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > People in favor of gay rights should never express an opinion on climate change? Someone interested in tax policy needs to shut up about climate change? People who want to mitigate climate change need to shut up about all other political issues? What a bizarre comment. No one is talking about opinions - I was talking about the logic of marrying legislation to fix what we are told is an existential threat, with legislation for policies guaranteed to reduce support for the bill. As an analogy, let’s say Republicans believed that the military needed vastly more funding to counter a threat from another country that they claim WILL attack unless the military is greatly built up over 10 years. They have all the Republican votes they need, but can’t get Democrats onboard and need their votes to succeed. Given that scenario, now imagine that the Republicans come up with the ‘Military New Deal’, which is an omnibus legislative package that marries their military budget with a laundry list of Republican wishes - a ban on abortion, shutting down the Department of Education, tax cuts, nationwide concealed carry of handguns, etc. And Democrats are told that they have to vote for all of it to get the military buildup. Do you think this strategy would help or harm the cause of getting Democrats to vote for a military buildup? > [@](#): > > I’ll guess that your point isn’t really so nonsensical, but it sure sounds like it. Probably because you read it while thinking the following: > [@](#): > > Give the GOP credit for one thing: _A single issue_: **Stupidity**. _Scientists are stupid; liberals are stupid; non-Christians are stupid; gun control is stupid; foreigners are stupid; government workers and every President before Trump are stupid._ A single versatile message! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/51 "2019-06-16T20:47:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What a bizarre comment. No one is talking about opinions - I was talking about the logic of marrying legislation to fix what we are told is an existential threat, with legislation for policies guaranteed to reduce support for the bill. 😕 Cite that the Democrats are doing anything like this? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/52 "2019-06-16T21:59:49Z")
Have you heard of the ‘Green New Deal’? Go look at how much of it actually has to do with climate change. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/53 "2019-06-16T22:11:00Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Have you heard of the ‘Green New Deal’? Go look at how much of it actually has to do with climate change. I would like to see that bill you are talking about, but that is not there, do you know what a non-binding resolution is? > **[Non-binding resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binding_resolution)** > > A non-binding resolution is a motion adopted by a deliberative body that does not enact a law or a substantive rule, and is simply used to make known what the opinions of that body are in relation to a certain fact or event. > This type of resolution is often used to express the body's approval or disapproval of something that they cannot otherwise vote on, due to the matter being handled by another jurisdiction, or being protected by a constitution. An example would be a resolution of support fo... > [@](#): > > A non-binding resolution is a written motion adopted by a deliberative body that cannot progress into a law. The substance of the resolution can be anything that can normally be proposed as a motion. Or in other words, lets get the ball running, and discuss this, of course the Republicans in the Senate decided to force a vote on beginning the discussion\*\* and voted against even that\*\*. It is clear that a lot of what you are complaining about would/will not make it into law… While at the same time a lot of what you mentioned about the Republican “equivalent” of it is being deployed by Trump with the ‘3 monkey act’ consent of the Republicans in congress. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/54 "2019-06-17T01:51:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would like to see that bill you are talking about, but that is not there, do you know what a non-binding resolution is? > > [Non-binding resolution - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binding_resolution) > Or in other words, lets get the ball running, and discuss this, of course the Republicans in the Senate decided to force a vote on beginning the discussion\*\* and voted against even that\*\*. It is clear that a lot of what you are complaining about would/will not make it into law… While at the same time a lot of what you mentioned about the Republican “equivalent” of it is being deployed by Trump with the ‘3 monkey act’ consent of the Republicans in congress. So you mean the Democrats couldn’t get Republican support for their ‘non-binding resolution’ that happened to mix climate change policy with a universal income, universal free education, high taxes on the rich, more regulations across the economy and trillions of dollars in ‘stimulus’ spending? I’m shocked. And it proves my point. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/55 "2019-06-17T02:14:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So you mean the Democrats couldn’t get Republican support for their ‘non-binding resolution’ that happened to mix climate change policy with a universal income, universal free education, high taxes on the rich, more regulations across the economy and trillions of dollars in ‘stimulus’ spending? > > I’m shocked. And it proves my point. Nope, again what bill are you talking about? As you said: “No one is talking about opinions - I was talking about the logic of marrying legislation to fix what we are told is an existential threat, with legislation for policies guaranteed to reduce support for the bill.” And you only spectacularly showed all that you missed the point. Just starting the conversation by just only looking at the resolution would had showed that indeed a lot of what the more liberal Democrats proposed would not had gone into an eventual bill, making any point you made there moot. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/56 "2019-06-17T08:33:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Have you heard of the ‘Green New Deal’? Go look at how much of it actually has to do with climate change. 😕 :smack: You post in _Elections_ and don’t even know the difference between a multi-iussue _platform_ and specific _legislation_? :rolleyes: Yep. _Someone_’s comments are rather bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/57 "2019-06-17T18:40:02Z")
Sam, I agree with you on this one. I favor treating climate chance as an individual issue rather than trying it to Universal Basic Income and so on, AOC style. It is worth pointing out that the Green New Deal got ZERO votes in the Senate. I don’t think we have to worry about it. From my perspective, it seems as if the right only ever talks about climate change in the context of the Green New Deal, so that people will be afraid of the Trojan Horse effect. It also seems as if Fox’s coverage of Democrats would lead one to believe that AOC is the only Democrat in existence, I am guessing so that viewers will become either afraid of or angry with Democrats. Note that most people don’t think clearly when they are angry or afraid. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876/58 "2019-06-17T18:55:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Sam, I agree with you on this one. I favor treating climate chance as an individual issue rather than trying it to Universal Basic Income and so on, AOC style. > > It is worth pointing out that the Green New Deal got ZERO votes in the Senate. I don’t think we have to worry about it. To be more precise the Democrats only voted “present” as a way to protest the “see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil” move by the Republicans. > **[Senate Blocks Green New Deal, But Climate Change Emerges As Key 2020 Issue](https://www.npr.org/2019/03/26/705897344/green-new-deal-vote-sets-up-climate-change-as-key-2020-issue)** > > The GOP-controlled Senate failed to advance a Democratic resolution led by New York freshman Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez that calls for the U.S. to reach zero net carbon emissions within 10 years. > [@](#): > > “I think it’s a real stupid political move for them to show how cavalier they are about climate change by playing games with the Green New Deal,” said Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn., ahead of the vote. **"If they don’t like the Green New Deal, fine, put up your own idea.** It smells so disingenuous, especially to young voters. I think it’s a really dumb move for them to mess around with this." > > All 53 Republicans oppose the Green New Deal. Most Democrats decided on a strategy to vote present led by Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y. "I’m for it, but I have no problem voting ‘present,’ " said Murphy. Schumer wants Democrats to run more aggressively in favor of climate change policies going into 2020, although he conceded in an interview with The New York Times earlier this month that the exact legislative form that will take is still up for debate. “It’s going to take us a little while to come up with a consensus that works,” he said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-climate-change-activists-not-extreme-enough/834876.md?page=2)