# Are comics sexist? Or just sexy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2007, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478 "2007-07-12T08:50:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/101 "2007-07-15T14:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Fiver] I’ll take this one: Buffy Summers. Faith. Zoe Warren. River Tam. Sarah Connor. Ensign Ro. Major Kira. Tasha Yar. Sharon Agathon. Kara Thrace. Jaime Somers. Agatha Heterodyne. […] And none of them are comics characters except the last, and Agatha is from an indy comic (now a webcomic). [/QUOTE] To be strictly accurate - none of them started out as comic characters, but there have been several Buffy and Firefly comics, at least. errm, also, Agatha has been stripped down to her bloomers on occasion, but nothing like, say, Emma Frost. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/102 "2007-07-15T14:58:27Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] To be strictly accurate - none of them started out as comic characters, but there have been several Buffy and Firefly comics, at least. [/QUOTE] Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/103 "2007-07-15T16:35:54Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] You aren’t speaking for the masses, **EC**. You’re speaking for a very small minority. Most people don’t find the way women are portrayed in comics to be particularly attractive. That’s one of the reasons most people don’t buy comics. [/QUOTE] In defense of **EC** you might want to be a bit more clear about what you mean by most people not finding the women in comics to be attractive. **EC** mentions the following heroines in the OP. Bomb Queen (anti-hero at best more a villain), Power Girl, Witch Blade, Vampirella, and Red Sonja, all of whom are fairly attractive on a phsyical level even if they don’t have realistic proportions, which is sometimes determined by whoever the artist is that month. So I think **EC** is likely correct when he says most males would view the images of these heroines as attractive. I would also concede that drawing someone to be sexy doesn’t necessarily equal sexism. I’ve already outlined why I think many comics are sexist., but to be fair, this can be a difficult line to draw in the sand. Is [this](http://freakcomics.com/images/bqblcov.jpg) sexist? I think it’s hilarious myself. It seems rather silly that Red Sonja would fight in what amount to little more than a glittering bikini. Then again, in most of the issues of Conan I had he was fighting in little more than furry underwear. It seems to me that Conan and Red Sonja are pretty given the same treatment when it comes to clothes. Although [this](http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/10/10323.jpg) might hurt **EC’s** argument about male comic book readers not wanting to see beefcake. My argument for sexism doesn’t stem from the fact that comic book heroines look attractive. Heck, the males look attractive too, it stems largely from how heroines are treated. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/104 "2007-07-15T21:04:01Z")
[QUOTE=Fiver] Well, I’ve never read any Halo Jones comics. [/QUOTE] I’d recommend them, if you get the chance. > [@](#): > > But since you mention Alan Moore, I’ll add Cobweb, from the ABC book _Tomorrow Stories;_ Promethea from her own title, and Mina Harker from _League of Extraordinary Gentlemen._ I’d also toss in Eve Hammond from **V For Vendetta**. She’s a little more problematic, given that I have issues with her mock imprisonment, torture and humiliation at the hands of her mentor V, but her degradation was never titillating or sexualised: it was meant to be an horrific ordeal. Whether V was justified in doing it, even for her “own good” is a moot point, but it was never fetishised. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/105 "2007-07-16T01:58:39Z")
[QUOTE=Scissorjack] I’d recommend them, if you get the chance. [/quote] I’m on the case. Have there been any trade paperback collections? > [@](#): > > I’d also toss in Eve Hammond from **V For Vendetta**. We could probably save time by just stipulating “all female Alan Moore characters.” And Princess Victoria from Bryan Talbot’s _Heart of Empire_ miniseries. Betcha ten bucks **Evil Captor** hasn’t even heard of her. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/106 "2007-07-16T02:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=Fiver] I’m on the case. Have there been any trade paperback collections? [/QUOTE] [Sure have.](http://www.amazon.co.uk/complete-Ballad-Halo-Jones-2000/dp/1904265413) Course, some of us are _still_ waiting for Book Four… ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/107 "2007-07-16T02:10:49Z")
[QUOTE=Scissorjack] [Sure have.](http://www.amazon.co.uk/complete-Ballad-Halo-Jones-2000/dp/1904265413) Course, some of us are _still_ waiting for Book Four… [/QUOTE] Like you’ve been waiting for the final issue of _1963_ and the last 10 issues of _Big Numbers?_ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/108 "2007-07-16T03:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] Power Girl may be close to Superman’s strength, but her schtick **is** her enormous breasts. Has a group of women ever asked Clark Kent to show off his ass? No, but a crowd does ask Karen to show them her tits. Has anyone ever asked Batman to look sexy to distract an opponent? No, but they expect Power Girl to do it. Then there’s the fact that they refer to her as Power **Girl** instead of Power **Woman**. Even Invisible Girl got an update on her name. Do other members of the Justice League make comments about how sexy Batman or Superman look in their costumes? Nah, but they have fun discussing Power Girl’s outfit. **EC** , for whatever reason you don’t feel like adressing many of the reasons why some people find comics to be sexist. It isn’t just the outfits it’s a whole lot of other things. Instead, you choose to focus on only one aspect of women in comics. Marc [/QUOTE] I’ll grant you that Power Girl vs. Power Woman thing – she sure doesn’t look like a teen with those amazing gozongas of hers. (Ooh, that was naughty!) Power Woman would be much more appropriate. Plus, most of us are more comfortable with women being sexy than girls being sexy. I almost think Power Girl was purposefully invented as a lightning rod to attract the kind of responses you’ve made to the character. Except, what would be the point of that? I dunno. But the huge chabobs in the peekaboo window of an outfit does create the impression that somebody is pokin’ somebody with a sharp stick – a sharp stick shaped like an enormous pair of breasts! And the fact that all that pulchritude is wedded to a person with near Supermanian powers and a no-nonsense attitude where sexist behavior is concerned also points to Power Girl as a culturally as well as sexually provocative creation. Frankly, I don’t find Power Girl all that interesting. She’s got a great bod, yes, but a person who walks around with a pair of obviously store-bought breasts in a costume specifically designed to reveal them, who then insists that people not pay attention to the things she so obviously has put on display … well, she’s clearly deeply confused at some level, but given that there’s never been any indication that she’ll ever work that confusion out, she’s uninteresting. Stuck in a rut, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/109 "2007-07-16T03:38:33Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Well, I like me some hot comic-book chicks, and the Mary-Jane statuette cracked me up for being _so_ incorrect… actually, I’m fondest of Supergirl’s red hot-pants costume circa 1981. When the artwork gets too stylized (and anatomically impossible) is when it starts to lose its appeal, and not because it inspires any sense of outrage on somebody’s else behalf. If some women don’t like the books, don’t buy 'em. If they want to complain, let 'em. If they or the comic-book artists want to be taken seriously… good luck. [/QUOTE] I agree, that’s a fair attitude. However, I see a lot of criticism of the fact that women look sexy and that’s therefore sexist, a position no one here seems to be maintaining, but it’s definitely out there. And given that huge numbers of Americans were persuaded that George Bush wasn’t an idiot, but presidential material, not once but twice, it’s obvious that anyone can be convinced of anything if it gets repeated enough. So I am afraid that it is possible that all the stuff online may at some point convince some comics fans that looking at a hot woman in a slinky costume and thinking, ‘Wow, she really looks great!’ That’s hot! I wouldn’t kick her out of my Fortress of Solitude, even if she put little plastic snowflakes in that city in a jar and then shook it vigorously,’ is somehow wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/110 "2007-07-16T04:58:14Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] So I am afraid that it is possible that all the stuff online may at some point convince some comics fans that looking at a hot woman in a slinky costume and thinking, ‘Wow, she really looks great!’ That’s hot! I wouldn’t kick her out of my Fortress of Solitude, even if she put little plastic snowflakes in that city in a jar and then shook it vigorously,’ is somehow wrong. [/QUOTE] Three pages of this thread, and you still don’t even understand what you’re arguing against. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/111 "2007-07-16T05:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Three pages of this thread, and you still don’t even understand what you’re arguing against. [/QUOTE] Oh, I know what I’m arguing against. I’m just not sure what YOU’RE arguing against. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/112 "2007-07-16T05:44:10Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Three pages of this thread, and you still don’t even understand what you’re arguing against. [/QUOTE] Yeah, Captor, you _just don’t get it._ Miller shouldn’t have to explain it to you, you should _know_. You’re just so self-centered. And I bet you just roll over and go to sleep after you finish posting. ---
**Author:** ![I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9fc29f/32.png) [@I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_m_Ron_Burgundy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/113 "2007-07-16T08:08:16Z")
I don’t know what the hell the argument is either, but you folks sure do love talking about tits. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/114 "2007-07-16T13:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=I’m Ron Burgundy?] I don’t know what the hell the argument is either, but you folks sure do love talking about tits. [/QUOTE] In our defense … go to the OP and copy and paste the link for Power Girl and look at the illustration. That’s not fan art, that’s official Power Girl art by the official artist. It is really hard to talk about Power Girl in relationship to sexiness/sexism in comics without talking about her breasts. They’re the 800-pound gorillas in any discussion on this topic relating to her. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/115 "2007-07-16T17:15:42Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] It is really hard to talk about Power Girl in relationship to sexiness/sexism in comics without talking about her breasts. They’re the 800-pound gorillas in any discussion on this topic relating to her. [/QUOTE] Well, they’re big, but I wouldn’t say 800 pounds 😛 . ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/116 "2007-07-16T17:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] Ones that are “all sex object all the time” you mean? It would be a shorter list if I did the inverse, as Fiver did (although I could do it, and with characters from mainstream comics too). But the worst ones at the top of my head: She-Hulk, Mary-Jane Watson Parker, Lady Death, Dawn, Vampirella, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Phantom Lady, Dumb Bunny, Catwoman, the Black Cat, Eclipso, Zatanna, Black Canary, Mary Marvel, and Supergirl. [/QUOTE] Heh. I kinda lost interest in this topic so I stopped posting (and that’s not meant to be dismissive or anything, there’s a reason I have sub-1k posts in 7 years, my thread attention span isn’t great), but I seriously disagree some of the above listed characters are “all sex object all the time”. To take one example, I know I’ve seen you praise Simone’s work before, so was Black Canary’s long run in _Birds of Prey_ all sex object all the time? For that matter, while I’m sure you hate Kelly’s run on _Supergirl_, her attractiveness is far from being her only character trait; she’s also sullen, angsty, and confused. 🙂 (Which isn’t to say that I think the above characters aren’t often sexualized in their manner of dress and way they’re drawn, etc. But there’s a big difference between that and suggesting their sexual attractiveness is their only defining character trait.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/117 "2007-07-16T18:17:30Z")
Black Canary certainly isn’t indicative of any _recent_ trends, judging from [her first appearance in 1947](http://www.toonopedia.com/bcanary.htm) when she already had the bodice and fishnet stockings. And this [1941](http://www.toonopedia.com/phanlady.htm) debut is pretty much indistinguishable from what current complainers are on about, and as far as I know, it didn’t utterly destroy gender relations. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/118 "2007-07-16T18:35:50Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Black Canary certainly isn’t indicative of any _recent_ trends, judging from [her first appearance in 1947](http://www.toonopedia.com/bcanary.htm) when she already had the bodice and fishnet stockings. [/QUOTE] If that’s her first appearance, why does the cover say “At last! Black Canary in a feature of her own!” as if the fans have been clamoring for it? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/119 "2007-07-16T18:57:47Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Think of it like this. A few decades ago, the majority of comics readers had certain opinions on Germans and Japanese people. And so comics came out that caricatured those people; impressively racist stuff, considering they were written for kids. But hey, the comic companies were merely providing what the audience wanted - a chance to see Superman beat up those perfidious types! [/QUOTE] Am glad someone made this argument. Because even if some guys find them attractive, whenever I see female superheroes/comic book characters with ridiculous costumes and proportions beyond the reach of the most skilled plastic surgeons, I can’t help but think of embarrassing stuff like [this](http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/03/23/picture_47.jpg) and [this](http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories __Narratives__ Documen/Visualizing_Otherness_Set_1/Visualizing_Otherness_III_Set_/1911comics2A.jpg) (so which came first, black and Asian people reading American comics or…?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478/120 "2007-07-16T19:05:43Z")
[QUOTE=Fiver] If that’s her first appearance, why does the cover say “At last! Black Canary in a feature of her own!” as if the fans have been clamoring for it? [/QUOTE] Her debut was a few issues earlier in _Flash Comics_ #86 (the splash cover announcing her getting her own feature was on _Flash Comics_ #92) and aside from a small mask, her costume was identical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-comics-sexist-or-just-sexy/411478.md?page=7)