# Are Conservatives less willing to rethink their ideas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260 "2009-02-03T15:24:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/41 "2009-02-03T20:19:50Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > Define conservative. From [_The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America,_](http://www.amazon.com/Right-Nation-Conservative-Power-America/dp/0143035398/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224007314&sr=8-1) by conservative British journalists John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge: > [@](#): > > The exceptionalism of the American Right is partly a matter of its beliefs. The first two definitions of “conservative” offered by the Concise Oxford Dictionary are “adverse to rapid change” and “moderate, avoiding extremes.” Neither of these seems a particularly good description of what is going on in America at the moment. “Conservatism” – no less than its foes “liberalism” or “communitarianism” – has become one of those words that are now as imprecise as they are emotionally charged. Open a newspaper and you can find the word used to describe Jacques Chirac, Trent Lott, the Mullah Omar and Vladimir Putin. Since time immemorial, conservatives have insisted that their deeply pragmatic creed cannot be ideologically pigeonholed. > > But, in philosophical terms at least, classical conservatism does mean something. The creed of Edmund Burke, its most eloquent proponent, might be crudely reduced to six principles: **a deep suspicion of the power of the state; a preference for liberty over equality; patriotism; a belief in established institutions and hierarchies; skepticism about the idea of progress; and elitism.** Winston Churchill happily accepted these principles: he was devoted to nation and empire, disinclined to trust the lower orders with anything, hostile to the welfare state, worried about the diminution of liberty and, as he once remarked ruefully, “preferred the past to the present and the present to the future.” > > To simplify a little, the exceptionalism of modern American conservatism lies in its **exaggeration of the first three of Burke’s principles and contradiction of the last three.** The American Right exhibits a far deeper hostility towards the state than any other modern conservative party. . . . The American right is also more obsessed with personal liberty than any other conservative party, and prepared to tolerate an infinitely higher level of inequality. (One reason why Burke warmed to the American revolutionaries was that, unlike their dangerous French equivalents, the gentlemen rebels concentrated on freedom, not equality.) On patriotism, nobody can deny that conservatives everywhere tend to be a fairly nationalistic bunch. . . . Yet many European conservatives have accepted the idea that their nationality should be diluted in “schemes and speculations” like the European Union, and they are increasingly reconciled to dealing with national security on a multilateral basis. American conservatives clearly are not. > > If the American Right was merely a more vigorous form of conservatism, then it would be a lot more predictable. In fact, the American Right takes a resolutely liberal approach to Burke’s last three principles: hierarchy, pessimism and elitism. The heroes of modern American conservatism are not paternalist squires but rugged individualists who don’t know their place: entrepeneurs who build mighty businesses out of nothing, settlers who move out West, and, of course, the cowboy. There is a frontier spirit to the Right – unsurprisingly, since so much of its heartland is made up of new towns of one sort of another. > > The geography of conservatism also helps to explain its optimism rather than pessimism. In the war between the Dynamo and the Virgin, as Henry Adams characterized the battle between progress and tradition, most American conservatives are on the side of the Dynamo. They think that the world offers all sorts of wonderful possibilities. And they feel that the only thing that is preventing people from attaining these possibilities is the dead liberal hand of the past. By contrast, Burke has been described flatteringly by European conservatives as a “prophet of the past.” Spend any time with a group of Republicans, and their enthusiasm for the future can be positively exhausting. > > As for elitism, rather than dreaming about creating an educated “clerisy” of clever rulers (as Coleridge and T.S. Eliot did), the Republicans ever since the 1960s have played the populist card. Richard Nixon saw himself as the champion of the “silent majority.” In 1988 the aristocratic George H.W. Bush presented himself as a defender of all-American values against the Harvard Yard liberalism of Michael Dukakis. In 2000, George W. Bush, a president’s son who was educated at Andover, Yale and Harvard Business School, played up his role as a down-to-earth Texan taking on the might of Washington. As a result, modern American conservatism has flourished not just in country clubs and boardrooms, but at the grass roots – on talk radio and at precinct meetings, and in revolts against high taxes, the regulation of firearms and other invidious attempts by liberal do-gooders to force honest Americans into some predetermined mold. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/42 "2009-02-03T20:52:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > In an episode of This American Life\* there was a mention of a study about conservatives vs liberals and their reaction to refutation of beliefs. Both sides are equally likely to have beliefs unsupported by the facts BUT when presented with evidence to refute the false beliefs, conservatives were far more likely to assert the original belief more strongly despite the evidence to the contrary. I’d love to see the details behind the study - it was only mentioned in passing on the show, in the context of people trying to convince voters to choose their candidate during the election - but it certainly matches up with my (anecdotal) experience. [Here’s](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/14/AR2008091402375_pf.html) a story about it. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > I think that’s because conservatives think things through more thoroughly, and when they present an idea, it’s got a lot of solid footing already based on sound reasoning. Nonsense. Conservatives consistently ignore both logic and facts. They oppose teaching evolution, despite the evidence for it being overwhelming. They support teaching abstinence in schools, despite the evidence that it doesn’t work. They support the free market as a magic solution for everything no matter how often it fails. They oppose the government as a solution for anything no matter how often it succeeds. They claim America is the “greatest country” in the world despite all the evidence that it’s behind other countries in various ways. They oppose same sex marriage and the right for homosexuals to be in the military on the strength of consequences that never actually happen anywhere they are allowed. And on, and on. They don’t “think things through more thoroughly”; they DON’T THINK AT ALL. They base their beliefs on faith and denial of reality, and oppose rational thought and facts. If it wasn’t officially a political position and thus semi-sacred it would probably be classified as a personality disorder. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/43 "2009-02-03T20:57:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Further, and I’ll have to look it up (did it in another thread around here a few months ago) the US economy has prospered more under liberal presidents than conservative ones. [Was this about what you were looking for?](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/14/opinion/20081014_OPCHART.html) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/44 "2009-02-03T21:09:32Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > [Was this about what you were looking for?](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/10/14/opinion/20081014_OPCHART.html) Oooh! Nope…I was thinking of something else (linked to it earlier in this thread) but that one is great! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/45 "2009-02-03T22:05:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > All the new ideas of the last few years - school vouchers, free trade, tax cuts to stimulate revenue, privatization for Social Security, cap-and-trade for emissions, etc. - are all conservative ideas. > > Liberals are the ones who are stuck in the past. > > As long as we are throwing around gross over-generalizations… > > Regards, > Shodan Sadly, this is conventional wisdom in some quarters. If the right come up with something, it’s acclaimed as a new idea with real potential; but if the left come up with something, it’s just harebrained crazy talk. **School vouchers** –adored by “social conservatives,” but not economically conservative in a classic sense. **Free Trade** –I wasn’t aware that was new. **Tax cuts to stimulate revenue** –the 1970’s is the last few years? Anyway, the Laffer Curve works, but most of the “cut taxes to raise revenue” plans are naked nonsense on the level of claiming to run cars on water. **Social Security privatization** –interesting idea, quite right-wing, opposed by the left & center for technically conservative (albeit not Conservative) reasons. **Cap-and-trade, etc.** –also known as, trying to get the industrial private sector to approach doing the right thing when you seem unable to build a proper regulatory state. Actually Conservative, though, in the economic-status sense. Anyway, by being “change” ideas, they’re not conservative by definition. And their attraction to “economic Conservatives” (i.e., those with power & wealth who want more of the same) is very understandable. Too bad Free Trade is only loved hypocritically, & the tax cuts idea simply doesn’t work for the state (works great for the Conservatives, tho’) Some more “conservative new ideas”: Breaking treaties Changing the rules of “sound foreign policy” when the new Dear Leader gets a new idea, & denouncing those who disagree with you but agree with what you said 5 years ago. The water cure Bankrupting the government (& therefore the country) to abolish popular programs you personally despise Drowning the government in your bathtub, popular will be damned. With conservatives like these, Woodrow Wilson could be a “conservative”! Meanwhile, the left has the following: **Single-payer health care** –tho’ I guess whether that’s new or not depends on whether one has seen Europe. **Equal pay for equal work** –oh, wait, that’s from the 1970’s, it’s…almost as old as the Laffer Curve. **Same-Sex Marriage** **Carbon tax** –which is the same kind of thing as cap-and-trade, yet somehow didn’t get mentioned as a new idea. Confirmation bias, much? **Net neutrality** –not that the old goats in Congress know what that means. Hmmmm… ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/46 "2009-02-03T22:23:41Z")
More seriously, there are persons with any number of different political & social perspectives with might be called “conservative” or insist on calling themselves “conservative.” I’m a conservationist. Conservative! (but not right-wing!) I’m poor. Not Conservative! I believe in balanced budgets. [del]Fiscal Conservative[/del] get lip service from whichever party is in minority! I believe in redistribution of wealth. Not Conservative! I believe in rule of law. Conservative? Depends on when you ask! I support the death penalty. Conservative! For corporate executives who willfully violate anti-pollution laws. Not Conservative! \_ Generally, though, there are three big (source) categories of “conservatism” in the USA, & then their mad mongrel child: **1. the “fear change” component:** Literal conservatism, wary of anything new-fangled. Sometimes gets tangled up in fear of something “foreign.” **2. the economic Conservative:** Someone who thinks he’s got a good living ahead of him the way things are going now, so tries to avoid anything that threatens that. Found among the rich, if they don’t feel secure enough to give some wealth up or if they are genuinely disinterested in their fellow man. Also found in the upwardly mobile who are trying to get rich in the present paradigm & don’t want to be bothered or confused by paradigm changes. **3. the Traditionalist/Moralist Axis:** Not necessarily either of the above, those who have a traditional belief or religion to go by. Can be diametrically opposed to category two, & make common cause with them largely where categories 1 &/or 4 embrace both. **4. The “Conservative Movement”:** It was a shell game, a propaganda exercise designed to find whichever component of your worldview corresponds to at least one of the above three & convince you that therefore you are a “conservative.” But it has become something like a team affiliation now, & people are loyal to the movement as daftly as Trotskyists. The scary thing about category 4 is that it’s a religion in its own way, & can be cultish. So there’s that cultish refusal to know anything not considered of the group. But mostly, I think the trait you’re talking about is a trait sometimes linked to category 1 due to common proximate cause–a certain stiffness of mind which is not always the cause of conservatism. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/47 "2009-02-03T22:29:51Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I think that’s because conservatives think things through more thoroughly, and when they present an idea, it’s got a lot of solid footing already based on sound reasoning. It’s easy to get on board with an idea when it’s well thought out, and conservatives seem to be better at accommodating different schools of thought within the ideology in order to build a consensus. > > On the other hand, many liberal ideas are spur of the moment. “Let’s fix healthcare!” “How?”, “Government will pay for it!”. Lack of fore thought and handwaving away problems makes it hard to build support for ideas accross the different ideologies within liberalism. The result is that fragmented support, unless you resort to the lowest common denominator. This does not jibe with my experience. I was a knee-jerk fiscal conservative in my youth, & grew up to be a considered redistributionist. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/48 "2009-02-03T22:45:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They don’t “think things through more thoroughly”; they DON’T THINK AT ALL. They base their beliefs on faith and denial of reality, and oppose rational thought and facts. If it wasn’t officially a political position and thus semi-sacred it would probably be classified as a personality disorder. Sadly the liberals are the same. They support communism despite it failing to be a sustainable system. They support deficit spending to prop up social programs that have little net result. They slash spending for law enforcement, which drives up crime rates and constantly let criminals out early to continue their activities. They support adults having sex with young children despite all the psychological baggage that it brings. They believe that eating meat is murder and we should all be vegetarians. They want to take from the hard workers and give it to people who can’t even benifit society They claim America is the “worst country” in the world despite all the evidence that it’s ahead other countries in various ways. They think that we shouldn’t have a military, that it just promoted violence and our enemies would love us if we just abolished it. And on, and on. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/49 "2009-02-03T22:51:36Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > They support adults having sex with young children despite all the psychological baggage that it brings. …Wait, what? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/50 "2009-02-03T22:57:14Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > …Wait, what? Seconded. I thought the post was off the rails in the second sentence but that takes the cake. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/51 "2009-02-03T22:57:34Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > …Wait, what? NAMBLA, totally liberal. Liberals are members just as conservatives don’t believe the government is ever a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/52 "2009-02-03T22:59:42Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Sadly the liberals are the same. They support communism despite it failing to be a sustainable system. They support deficit spending to prop up social programs that have little net result. They slash spending for law enforcement, which drives up crime rates and constantly let criminals out early to continue their activities. They support adults having sex with young children despite all the psychological baggage that it brings. They believe that eating meat is murder and we should all be vegetarians. They want to take from the hard workers and give it to people who can’t even benifit society They claim America is the “worst country” in the world despite all the evidence that it’s ahead other countries in various ways. They think that we shouldn’t have a military, that it just promoted violence and our enemies would love us if we just abolished it. And on, and on. > [@Bosstone](#): > > …Wait, what? That’s the only thing on the list that you question? I don’t see anything there that is truly a popular idea among liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/53 "2009-02-03T23:00:22Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > …Wait, what? > [@kidchameleon](#): > > NAMBLA, totally liberal. Liberals are members just as conservatives don’t believe the government is ever a solution. :smack: Hitler, totally conservative. We really going down this road? And I am pretty sure political views bear no relation to being a pedophile. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/54 "2009-02-03T23:05:49Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That’s the only thing on the list that you question? I don’t see anything there that is truly a popular idea among liberals. I gave the rest of the list a pass as it seems intended to be an exaggerated retort to **Der Trihs** , but that’s the only thing that’s honestly and truly indefensible. Nobody, left or right, owns NAMBLA except NAMBLA. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/55 "2009-02-03T23:38:01Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Sadly the liberals are the same. They support communism despite it failing to be a sustainable system. They support deficit spending to prop up social programs that have little net result. They slash spending for law enforcement, which drives up crime rates and constantly let criminals out early to continue their activities. They support adults having sex with young children despite all the psychological baggage that it brings. They believe that eating meat is murder and we should all be vegetarians. They want to take from the hard workers and give it to people who can’t even benifit society They claim America is the “worst country” in the world despite all the evidence that it’s ahead other countries in various ways. They think that we shouldn’t have a military, that it just promoted violence and our enemies would love us if we just abolished it. And on, and on. Hence the problem with a binary standard. As a social democrat, I would like to point out that we social democrats include communists, but liberals generally are capitalist. Of course, then there are libertarian socialists, who just can’t live by your rules. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/56 "2009-02-03T23:47:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Hence the problem with a binary standard. > > As a social democrat, I would like to point out that we social democrats include communists, but liberals generally are capitalist. Of course, then there are libertarian socialists, who just can’t live by your rules. Oh I’m a libertarian. I just want a system of law and order to enforce my greed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/57 "2009-02-04T00:25:23Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Oh I’m a libertarian. I just want a system of law and order to enforce my greed. Based on your post, I’d have thought you were a liberal making an unsuccessful attempt to show how dumb conservatives were by posting a parody of a “conservative” viewpoint that has no bearing on reality. _::: shrug :::_ I am not sure why these sorts of threads keep getting posted. Most of the claims are simply slightly more moderate examples of the views posted by **Der Trihs** and **kidchameleon** and few posters seem to be interested in examining genuine differences rather than trying to show that the “other side” is “bad” or taking umbrage at the remarks aimed at one’s own “side.” _::: sigh :::_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/58 "2009-02-04T00:45:07Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Sadly the liberals are the same. They support communism despite it failing to be a sustainable system. No, they don’t. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They support deficit spending to prop up social programs that have little net result. You mean like preventing mass starvation ? Of course, you are an admitted libertarian; you likely consider mass death among the poor to be a good thing. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They slash spending for law enforcement, which drives up crime rates and constantly let criminals out early to continue their activities. Actually, it’s the conservatives who tend to let criminals out early. Both by overfilling prisons with people so some HAVE to be let go, and by being so terrified of the evil liberal judges that they pass mandatory sentencing laws - which prevent those “liberal judges” from keeping people in longer. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They support adults having sex with young children despite all the psychological baggage that it brings. Nonsense. In fact, the groups that tend to have sex with children or defend doing so tend to be conservatives; Catholic priests, Mormon patriarchs and such > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They believe that eating meat is murder and we should all be vegetarians. - looks up from hamburger \* Hmmm ? > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They want to take from the hard workers and give it to people who can’t even benifit society Yes, it’s wrong to take money from the rich, and give to the poor; Mr Rich might have to sell his third gold bathtub, while the poor will squander it on food and shelter ! > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They claim America is the “worst country” in the world despite all the evidence that it’s ahead other countries in various ways. And behind in others. And I can’t think of anyone who calls America the “worst country in the world”. There’s so much competition. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > They think that we shouldn’t have a military, that it just promoted violence and our enemies would love us if we just abolished it. And who thinks that ? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/59 "2009-02-04T01:08:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Oooh! Nope…I was thinking of something else (linked to it earlier in this thread) but that one is great! > > Thanks! I find that particular graphic to be very useful for its stark red, white and blue simplicity–not many words to parse and twist there. The real fun begins when the conservative you show it to attempts to explain how all those low numbers were actually CAUSED by the high-number presidents that preceded them… The mental Cirque de Soleil moves required to make that work are truly an art form and I applaud the ones who manage it as I do any amazing feat of determination no matter how ill-considered. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260/60 "2009-02-04T01:21:16Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > I find that particular graphic to be very useful for its stark red, white and blue simplicity–not many words to parse and twist there. The real fun begins when the conservative you show it to attempts to explain how all those low numbers were actually CAUSED by the high-number presidents that preceded them… The mental Cirque de Soleil moves required to make that work are truly an art form and I applaud the ones who manage it as I do any amazing feat of determination no matter how ill-considered. The more intelligent person realizes that there is a time lag, and that you have to factor in who controls Congress and by what margin. Of course, that level of nuance is beyond the capability of most message board debaters. Buckley changed to recognize that the drug war was, perhaps, a bad idea. Tribe owned up to the fact that the 2nd amendment recognized the individual right to keep and bear arms. Clinton embraced free trade, instead of union backed protectionism - and was supported by many liberals. I have met many Liberals incapable of admitting that they are wrong, but I also am closely associated with a University - so I get the opportunity to interact with more open liberals. I also meet many an idiot conservative when I am at certain types of trade shows. How many liberals will openly admit that illegal immigrants cost us millions, and that we can not afford to have no control over our borders? How many conservatives will openly admit that many businesses depend on the cheap labor to keep prices down? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-conservatives-less-willing-to-rethink-their-ideas/484260.md?page=4)