# Are Dems growing cajones? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995 "2005-11-01T23:34:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rachm\_Qoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Rachm\_Qoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachm_Qoch)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/1 "2005-11-01T23:34:23Z")
Or just being asshats? > [@Senator Frist](#): > > “The United States Senate has been hijacked by the Democratic leadership,” Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee said. “Never have I been slapped in the face with such an affront to the leadership of this grand institution.” [reuters](http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-01T213241Z_01_SIB174270_RTRUKOC_0_US-BUSH-LEAK-CONGRESS.xml) Apparently this is the first time in 25 years a party (let alone a minority party) has unilaterly invoked Senate Rule 21 to hold closed-door sessions. With both parties gearing up for the Alito nomination, the Democrats’ typical deferential accomodating wine-and-cheese attitude won’t serve them very well. Does this signal a new fighting posture for the Demacratic Party? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/2 "2005-11-01T23:41:12Z")
Too early to tell, but the more I see of Harry Reid, the more I like. Misjudged the man, thought him bland and colorless, turns out he’s cream cheese and gunpowder on a Ritz. Give 'em hell, Harry! ---
**Author:** ![HeelB4Zod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e19adc/32.png) [@HeelB4Zod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeelB4Zod)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/3 "2005-11-01T23:52:48Z")
If they are growing balls, they picked a good time to do so. And, I should add, it’s about f—ing time. It is time to go on the offensive to gear up for 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/4 "2005-11-02T00:07:30Z")
I don’t know anything about the closed-door force and I don’t know whether it’s out of line, but I certainly think that in itself, the demand for the report on Administration use of Iraq intel is reasonable. The Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee produced the first part of this report, the one slamming the CIA intelligence, back in July 2004. In [April 2005](http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0405/041105c1.htm) they said they were going to finish the second part, which investigates whether the administration cherry-picked or misrepresented the intelligence data in their arguments for war. But they refused to set a timeline, and as far as I know, there is still no official due date for that report. If they’re supposedly conducting an investigation into the actions of the executive branch, it seems reasonable to demand that at some point they produce the results, or at least set a deadline for producing them. The perception has been that the Republicans on the committee simply want to stall this potentially embarrassing report indefinitely. If that’s true, what would be a legitimate way for the minority party to force them to do their job? In any case, Congressional Republicans will have a hard time complaining about Democratic “bullying” without looking like hypocrites. They’ve been no strangers to the use of [aggressive tactics](http://baltimorechronicle.com/102204Sniatecki.html) themselves: > [@](#): > > The book [DeLay biography _The Hammer_] explores the various ways in which the Republican leadership has manipulated the rules of the House to dominate legislation. George W. Bush’s Medicare bill was debated in secret during the Republican Conference. No Democrats and no press were allowed. The leadership held the voting time open for three hours to ensure passage. The most the Democrats had ever held a vote past the 15-minute limit during their majority was by 10 minutes. > > “For forty years we were in the minority and we complained about Democratic high-handed tactics,” said Sherry Boehlert, a Republican representative. “Now we’re in power and we’re doing the same thing.” > > DeLay’s response to such criticism is, characteristically, blunt. “We have a strategy of using every tool available–every vehicle available to us–to make sure our positions prevail.” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/5 "2005-11-02T00:12:41Z")
> [@Rachm Qoch](#): > > Does this signal a new fighting posture for the Demacratic Party? I hope so, though it’s too early to tell. Bill Frist whining about underhanded behavior doesn’t get any sympathy from me, though. > [@Kimstu](#): > > In any case, Congressional Republicans will have a hard time complaining about Democratic “bullying” without looking like hypocrites. Has that ever stopped them before? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/6 "2005-11-02T00:12:58Z")
Timing, timing, it’s all a matter of timing. And the time is right! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/7 "2005-11-02T00:25:22Z")
What shocked me was they said (I _think_ they said…) that the committe was, in fact an ongoing, happening thing. I thought that they tabled the whole thing after hanging the CIA out to twist slowly. Now there was an investigation proceeding the entire time and I heard not one word about it! That said, one is required to “tut, tut” at the parliamentary tactics of the timing, the _realpolitik_ judo. Not the very best sportsmanship, don’t you know. But to paraphrase Mr DeLay (R-Undead), as quoted above: “By any means necessary.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/8 "2005-11-02T00:44:43Z")
Roberts said he had intended all along to work on the second phase beginning next week. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/9 "2005-11-02T00:48:07Z")
Excellent! Then he will, no doubt, have paper to prove it! Notes, memos, e-mails to principles, all refering to a specific date next week! Why, this will be no trouble to prove at all! Unless, of course, the decision to proceed was internal, and he hadn’t got around to advising anybody _else_ yet! Then I guess we just have to take his word for it, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/10 "2005-11-02T00:54:40Z")
Ooh, I use that one myself sometimes. “Glad you asked about that article, Jim—it’s in my schedule to get it to you by Friday! Didn’t I send you an email about that?” 😃 Still and all, irrespective of whether the Senate Intelligence Committee is really dragging its feet on this report and needs a boot up the butt to get them moving, this debate is supposed to be about whether Senate Dems actually had the right to boot them in this way. Does anybody know what this “closed-doors” maneuver is about and what it’s supposed to be used for? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/11 "2005-11-02T01:11:46Z")
Hooray for Harry Reid. If this “shutdown” is within the rules (and it is), then yes the Dems had the right to do this. I was never satisfied with the “official explanations” that were given out; they kept changing. I was never satisfied with what I considered to be a careless and cavalier approach, and the ever shifting rationale for war, in the face of evidence to the contrary of those rationales. Regardless of what the administration claimed, in trying to hang the CIA and Wilson in particular, the fact remained that the DECISIONS were made by the administration. They are accountable for those decisions. They can not blame anyone else. After reading over the years, many reports, editorials and screeds by various people who were very unhappy with the way information was (supposedly) mishandled, ignored, or “massaged”, and seeing how so many “absolute truths” were later shown to be untrue, I think it’s about time the Dems “went nuclear” in just this way. Blix, Kwiatkowski, CIA, Powell, Wilson, Downing Street memo, and now Rice with her almost admission of “other motives”, etc. They all contradicted the claims of the administration either right then or later on. I had to wonder, why so many people would contradict the White House. What would they have to gain by lying. Someone should be held to account. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/12 "2005-11-02T01:34:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Too early to tell, but the more I see of Harry Reid, the more I like. Misjudged the man, thought him bland and colorless, turns out he’s cream cheese and gunpowder on a Ritz. > > Give 'em hell, Harry! Harry Reid rocks! When I worked for the state, I had the pleasure of working with his office on some environmental issues in Northern Nevada. He’s always provided as much support as he could for both state and grass-roots projects that I’ve worked on. He looks like a quiet bookish guy, but he was a boxer and a cop before (and while) he went to law school. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/13 "2005-11-02T01:38:09Z")
Harry Reid has been showing that he’s got mad skillz for a while now - but this move was brilliant. It forces the issue, commanding discussion of the Bush administration lies about the war and the stonewalling of the entire Republican party on the matter. It shows balls, which is what the Democrats have been lacking, and why fewer people have wanted to support them. And it had Bill Frist whining like a little simpering ninny. So much for the bravado of the nuclear-option-threatening Republicans. A simply awesome deft political stroke that is procedurally fair, morally correct, exceptionally strong, and changed the landscape in one stroke. I give it two thumbs up - way up! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/14 "2005-11-02T01:41:44Z")
I think the Democrats are the least of the GOP’s worries. Check out the quotes from [Amercian Conservative Magazine](http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html) > [@](#): > > The question remains: who forged the documents? The available evidence suggests that two candidates had access and motive: SISMI and the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans. > > In January 2001, there was a break-in at the Niger Embassy in Rome. Documents were stolen but no valuables. The break-in was subsequently connected to, among others, Rocco Martino, who later provided the dossier to Panorama. Italian investigators now believe that Martino, with SISMI acquiescence, originally created a Niger dossier in an attempt to sell it to the French, who were managing the uranium concession in Niger and were concerned about unauthorized mining. Martino has since admitted to the Financial Times that both the Italian and American governments were behind the eventual forgery of the full Niger dossier as part of a disinformation operation. This thing is getting better than fiction. The walls are starting to crumble. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/15 "2005-11-02T02:38:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think the Democrats are the least of the GOP’s worries. Check out the quotes from [Amercian Conservative Magazine](http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html) > > This thing is getting better than fiction. The walls are starting to crumble. Ah yes. **The Office for Special Plans**. That was (I believe) the Neocon bunch that muscled their way into the Pentagon and threw their weight around. Retired USAF Lieutenant Colonel Kwiatkowski had plenty to say about them in particular. > [@Kwiatkowski](#): > > At the end of the summer of 2002, new space had been found upstairs on the fifth floor for an “expanded Iraq desk.” It would be called the Office of Special Plans. We were instructed at a staff meeting that this office was not to be discussed or explained, and if people in the Joint Staff, among others, asked, we were to offer no comment. We were also told that one of the products of this office would be talking points that all desk officers would use verbatim in the preparation of their background documents. … > More than that, the pressure of the intelligence community to conform, the rejection of it when it failed to produce intelligence suitable for supporting the “Iraq is an imminent threat to the United States” agenda, and the amazing things I was hearing in both Bush and Cheney speeches told me that not only do neoconservatives hold a theory based on ideas not embraced by the American mainstream, but they also have a collective contempt for fact. … > By late August, a large office was located upstairs on the fifth floor. At a staff meeting, we were told that the expanded Iraq desk would become the Office of Special Plans and would move out. We were told not to refer to this office as the Office of Special Plans and, if pressed, we were also not to confirm that it was the expanded Iraq desk. … > Some bullets would be softened, particularly statements of Saddam’s readiness and capability in the chemical, biological, or nuclear arena. Others were altered over time to match more exactly something Bush or Cheney had said in recent speeches. One item I never saw in our talking points was a reference to Saddam’s purported attempt to buy yellowcake uranium in Niger. The OSP list of crime and evil included a statement relating to Saddam’s attempts to seek fissionable materials or uranium in Africa. (Our point, written mostly in the present tense had conveniently omitted dates of the last known attempt, some time in the late 1980s.) I was later surprised to hear the president’s mention of the yellowcake in Niger because that indeed would be new, and in theory might have represented new actual intelligence, something remarkably absent in what we were seeing from the OSP. According to this account, data was being altered or invented, in order to support a decision that had already been made at the very highest levels. Coupled with the Downing Street memo, and all the rest, there really needs to be a reckoning. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/16 "2005-11-02T03:51:48Z")
Strikes me that it’s also a not-too-subtle signal to any Republicans still seriously considering the nuclear option w/regards to Supreme Court nominee Alito that Democrats can play hardball too. Just a willingness to nonchalantly do something the majority party doesn’t want done says “We don’t have to play nice, ya know” ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/17 "2005-11-02T04:19:39Z")
My prediction: nothing will come of this. Give it five or ten years and the general population might realize what was really going on. In the meantime… Freedom is on the march! ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/18 "2005-11-02T05:00:41Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > My prediction: nothing will come of this. Give it five or ten years and the general population might realize what was really going on. In the meantime… I doubt will see anyone frogmarched out of the White House because of this. But it does keep the Plamegate/Iraq War stuff in the headlines for a while longer, is hard for the Repubs to respond to, and as others have mentioned, makes the Dems look a little less like the doormatts they’ve been preceived as for the last couple years. So it was a pretty deft political move. Also I’ll add to the props given to Harry Reid. He keeps showing that he knows how to play a weak hand well. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/19 "2005-11-02T19:39:32Z")
I doubt this is the first time Frist has had his face slapped. Or the last. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995/20 "2005-11-03T01:55:32Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I doubt this is the first time Frist has had his face slapped. Or the last. And he’s acting like such a whiny little titty baby about it. Makes me feel warm all over. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dems-growing-cajones/328995.md?page=2)