# Are Department Stores Dinosaurs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078 "2005-03-05T13:22:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/1 "2005-03-05T13:22:26Z")
Reecently, MACY’s (Federated Department Stores) has announced its intention to acquire the MAY Co. chain (including FILENE’s Dept. stores. This seems to me to be evidence that the decline of the department store is accelerating-as specialty retailers (like the GAP, A&F, Banana Republic) take more and more of their business away, the low end of their market gets eaten up by TARGET, WALMART, etc. So, is this the final chapter for the classical department store? I would imagine that having high-overhead, in-town “flagship” stores must be a heavy expense for these chains to carry-and merging will make them at least temporarily, more effcient. I’d say the end for department stores started on the 1980’s-and the last chapters are being written now-in ten years, Macy’s may no longer exist. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/2 "2005-03-05T13:58:35Z")
I don’t believe they have to be in the shape they’re in, Ralph. However, the people I know who do shop there complain of the lack of knowlege of the sales staff and the “marketing” based positioning of items on the floor, where you have to wander through a thicket of items you don’t want to get to an item you do. In short, they probably will all but die, but it’s as much from following a bad business plan, resisting change, and not paying attention to competition, as much as being outmoded. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/3 "2005-03-05T14:33:45Z")
As long as the Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade continues, I won’t miss the actual stores. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/4 "2005-03-05T18:44:24Z")
😕 If one chain of department stores (Macy’s) is about to acquire another (May’s), why does that portend the decline of the department-store industry? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/5 "2005-03-05T18:55:02Z")
Seconded. I see no decline of the department store concept per se, but rather the localization of brands as the retailers become increasingly globalized. In NE, we’ve gone through this already a couple times, with the loss names like Lechmere and Jordan Marsh. The malls haven’t shrunken, nor their numbers decreased. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/6 "2005-03-05T23:40:49Z")
Isn’t Wal-Mart just as much a department store as Sears or Penny’s? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/7 "2005-03-06T01:50:03Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Isn’t Wal-Mart just as much a department store as Sears or Penny’s? > > Marc Right - it isn’t the end of department stores. Walmart is just doing great - thank you. It’s a customer move away from brand and to better prices and a new business model IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/8 "2005-03-06T02:02:06Z")
Somewhat related ------ > [@](#): > > \*\*…Distinctive high-end department stores, with very few exceptions, will be a thing of the past. Any New Yorker older than thirty-five who appreciates the charm of the classy department store will fondly remember B. Altman, just as Los Angeles shoppers wistfully think of I. Magnin and Bullocks, or the Chicago granddame, Marshall Fields. The loss of these exciting, individually stylish stores is a loss to all who remember when shopping was more than running in, grabbing a pair of sweats or jeans, paying and running out…. > > … Department stores had individual personalities. If you think of the stores in terms of classic actresses it will help demonstrate what I mean. The Broadway and the May Co. were June Allyson and Debbie Reynolds — the clean, neat, girls next door. Bullocks was Bette Davis, simple yet stylish. Robinsons was Grace Kelly, classy and understated. Bullocks Wilshire was Myrna Loy, elegant and expensive; and I. Magnin was Ethel Barrymore, the granddame…. > > …It’s impossible to apply the classic actress yardstick to today’s mega-mart stores, but if we use television personalities we might have something like the following: Nordstrom is Oprah Winfrey, Bloomingdales is Kelly Ripa, Wal-Mart is Roseanne Barr, K-Mart is Roseanne Barr, Sears is Roseanne Barr, Macys is Roseanne Barr, Target is Roseanne Barr, Mervyns is Roseanne Barr, and Marshall’s is Roseanne Barr.\*\* [http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/crosby030505.asp](http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/crosby030505.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/9 "2005-03-06T02:45:23Z")
So with the rich getting much much richer, shouldn’t high end department stores be flourishing? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/10 "2005-03-06T02:55:46Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > So with the rich getting much much richer, shouldn’t high end department stores be flourishing? In Tampa there’s a high-end mall called the International Plaza, which has a Dillard’s and a Neiman-Marcus – and they certainly seem to be flourishing. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/11 "2024-02-27T15:00:06Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > in ten years, Macy’s may no longer exist. Well it’s been 19 years and Macy’s still exists. But it keeps closing more and more stores and just announced it’s killing 1/3 of its existing stores: > **[Macy's is closing 150 stores nationwide as it seeks 'bold new chapter' with...](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/macys-closing-150-stores-nationwide-where-what-cities-rcna140663)** > > The pivot will leave approximately 350 locations, including Bloomingdale's and the Bluemercury beauty and skincare brand. So from over 1,000 stores in 2005 when the OP’s post was written to 350 within a year. > **[Macy's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macy%27s)** > > Macy's (originally R. H. Macy & Co.) is an American department store chain founded in 1858 by Rowland Hussey Macy. It has been a sister brand to the Bloomingdale's department store chain since being acquired by holding company Federated Department Stores in 1994, which renamed itself Macy's, Inc. in 2007. It is the largest department store company by retail sales in the United States as of 2015\[update\]. > Macy's operates with 508 stores in the United States. Its flagship store is located at Hera... ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/12 "2024-02-27T17:43:37Z")
Department stores as well as malls in general are doing just fine in the built up regions of European cities. Places where foot traffic is a thing anyway. In our modern era no one is getting in a car and driving to the middle of an asphalt field to then walk into a store to search for an item when in the comfort of their own house and sitting on couch they could enter a word search and then hit within minutes and it’ll arrive within the week. Automobiles and our city planning are to blame. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/13 "2024-02-27T17:58:53Z")
I’ve been to Macy’s and Nordstrom has not a handful of times in the last ten years. Twenty years ago I’d have gone about once a month. And the last two visits to them I bought nothing at all. They either did not have any shoes in my size in any reasonable style (Nordstrom) or there was no one available to even look to see if they had my size (Macy’s) Online isn’t a great solution. It took me returning at least 20 pairs before I had a pair each of black and brown dress shoes that fit me and didn’t look incredibly cheaply made. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/14 "2024-02-27T18:04:52Z")
What kills department stores for me is not online shopping but lack of consumables. Sure, occasionally in the same mall there will be a grocery store, but not often, so I’d rather get all my shopping done in one place. I’d rather that place be a mall because then I’d also be able to eat at the food court, but here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/15 "2024-02-27T18:41:49Z")
I grew up in and around Philadelphia, a city that was once a haven for [fine department stores](https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/department-stores/). The most famous ones were the _Big Six_: John Wanamaker, Strawbridge & Clothier (_“The Store That Does Things Right”_), Lit Brothers, Gimbels (_“Nobody, But Nobody, Undersells Gimbels”_), N. Snellenburg & Co.(catering to the Jewish community), and Frank & Seder (with a rooftop garden). They were all located on Market Street, the main shopping district in downtown Philadelphia. John Wanamaker was the first and most influential of the Big Six, founded by John Wanamaker in 1861. It was known for its innovations, such as the first in-store restaurant, the first Christmas tree, and the [largest pipe organ in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanamaker_Organ). It also hosted many cultural events, such as concerts, lectures, and fashion shows These flagship department stores were more than just places to shop. They were destinations to experience. Folks dressed up to visit them from near and far. Children dreamed of seeing their holiday displays. Although I was born after the department store heydays (my parents and grandparents witnessed their glory days), I still feel nostalgic for them. They were a part of Philadelphia’s history and culture. But, times changed and people’s tastes changed. They wanted cheaper and faster options. They preferred shopping malls and discount stores. They lost interest in the old-fashioned charm and service of the Big Six. One by one, they closed down or were taken over by other chains. The last to go was Wanamaker’s (which became Macy’s). Now, we have wall-to-wall Walmarts and online shopping. They may be convenient and economical, but they lack the magic and the memories of the Big Six. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/16 "2024-02-27T19:31:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Department stores as well as malls in general are doing just fine in the built up regions of European cities. Places where foot traffic is a thing anyway. European department stores are like American ones used to be, with a wide range of products under one roof. Today American stores are clothes, bedding, and kitchen equipment, nothing else. And not the slightest hint of luxury. At least that was the situation when I was in Berlin in 2015 or so. Maybe it is worse now. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/17 "2024-02-27T20:10:29Z")
They’re also doing fine in Asia and parts of the Middle East. In recent years I’ve been to Singapore, Bangkok, and Dubai. Malls, and the associated department stores, are absolutely thriving in those places. And then there’s Tokyo, where department stores are so massive they build their own commuter rail lines. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/18 "2024-02-27T20:22:28Z")
I think medium department stores are. They can’t compete with online and big box stores in the hinterlands. But big cities at least offer a chance of decent foot traffic. And places like TJ Maxx, Marshall’s and Winners (in Canada) seem to be doing well at the expense of pricier places. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/19 "2024-02-27T22:52:57Z")
Having worked in a grand old department store in the 1980s, I can testify that they were really expensive places to keep operating. Think about having fine jewelry, furs, major appliances, watch repairs, and a bargain basement under one roof. There were multiple divisions competing for resources, and the ladies who came to the Tea Room for lunch were scandalized by what they saw in Lingerie and Sleepwear. Trying to manage inventory in something like Living Room Furniture (where you might turn over the stock once a year) while using the same system for Junior Sportswear (where a blouse that hadn’t sold in six weeks was put on clearance) tugged cash flow management in different directions, and trying to tailor the suburban stores to their local shoppers was frustrating to someone who saw a particular item in one store but not in another. People in retail talk about [how Eddie Lampert destroyed Sears.](https://www.investopedia.com/news/downfall-of-sears/) Frankly, I’m surprised it lasted long enough for Lampert to get his hands on it. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078/20 "2024-02-27T23:06:45Z")
I think they are are kind of dinosaurs - but i think it’s because they fall in between two other models that Americans seem to prefer. You’ve got the stores like Target , Walmart , Sam’s Club etc that sell a wide variety of items including at least some food , possibly even enough to be a supermarket that are set up supermarket style in that there is one central location with multiple checkout lines. Then there are stores that sell only shoes or only housewares or clothes/bedding/housewares that have multiple registers all in the same area but not supermarket style. The old-fashioned department stores that sold clothes and furniture and toys and small and large appliances and tools (but not groceries) , that had a register in the ladies department and a separate one in the toy department - no one seems to want those anymore. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-department-stores-dinosaurs/293078.md?page=2)