# Are diesels going away again? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611 "2018-04-18T02:59:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/21 "2018-04-18T16:50:51Z")
The best dollar/mile car I ever owned was a 1983 Datsun Nissan Sentra Diesel (yes, it had all those name plates lined up on the trunk lid). It got 42 mpg in town and could get 51-52 on the highway. It did 0-60 inside of a week, but it would go down the (flat) interstate all day at 75 mph with no problem. Diesel was well under a dollar a gallon back then around here, too. The poor thing got sandwiched between two pickup trucks and I collected $1100 for it after paying $750 for it and driving it for seven years and seven months. Yes, there were upkeep costs (axle shafts, a bearing, alternator, tires) but never anything really costly. I wouldn’t buy a diesel car today. The fuel costs negate the fuel savings over gasoline. The diesel option costs too much. As long as diesel fuel costs more than gas does in the U.S., people aren’t going to buy diesel cars unless they’re die-hard fans. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/22 "2018-04-18T17:15:05Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > no they don’t. one thing I enjoy pointing out is that every single 2.0 liter DI gas turbo engine on the market has more torque and a lot more horsepower than VW’s 2.0 TDI. > > _Every. Single. One._ > > some fleets are switching to CNG for their trucks. FCA has (or is in the process) of changing all of their [transporter trucks to CNG from diesel.](https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/chrysler/2015/12/04/fca-invests-40-million-convert-truck-fleet-cng/76773604/) Yup. The 2011 TDI 2.0L diesel engine produces 140hp and 236 ft/lbs, whereas the 2.0 L turbo in my Buick Regal makes 256hp and 295 ft/lbs of torque. It’s interesting to note the evolution of that engine in that particular car (a GM-produced Opel Insignia, rebadged and with different sheet metal for the Buick market). The motor in my 2015 is a detuned variant of the engine that was in the pre-2014 model redo of the Regal GS. Then with the new Regal, which is once again a new design for the carline (which now includes a wagon version!!), the engine is slightly detuned further from 256hp down to an even 250hp, albeit with the new 9 speed auto tranny, as opposed to the durable but slow to react old 6 speed slushbox in my car. It’s noteworthy that this motor is used in a variety of platforms in various states of tune. The Cadillac ATS 2.0L turbo makes 272hp and the same 295 ft/lbs in my car. I happen to think it’s one of GM’s best engine designs ever, including this publication ([http://wardsauto.com/industry/general-motors-20l-turbocharged-dohc-i-4](http://wardsauto.com/industry/general-motors-20l-turbocharged-dohc-i-4)). I never thought that a slapstick tranny for manual operation of a sports sedan like my model could literally suck the life and fun of using that function, but it does due to it literally taking seconds to shift rather than milliseconds. Now I only use it for traversing steep descent grades so I don’t ride my brakes the whole time. That’s actually a funny story in it’s own right. Before I lost my house the neighborhood I lived in was pretty hilly, with the main drag into and out of the subdivision being particularly steep. I have had several people in my car with me (including my old man, an engineer) that have been alarmed at me when I would crest the hill and drop it into 1st gear to allow the engine RPM’s to hold the car at a reasonable speed down the hill so I don’t wear out the brakes. Told me I was going to break the tranny doing this, LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/23 "2018-04-18T17:33:47Z")
I loved my 535 D it was by far the best car I’ve ever owned and I typically got 700 miles to a tank of diesel. I could drive from Denver to Casper, work and drive home without filling up which was great since I made that as a day trip a bunch. Jeep is releasing diesels for their Wranglers next year and I’ve been eyeing them since it’s almost time for me to get a new car. Of course you don’t buy a wrangler for the fuel economy. Of course back then ('16 & 17) diesel and 85 octane gas were the same price so it was really worth it now diesel is about the same cost as premium so I’m not sure it’s worth the money. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/24 "2018-04-18T17:35:52Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > no they don’t. one thing I enjoy pointing out is that every single 2.0 liter DI gas turbo engine on the market has more torque and a lot more horsepower than VW’s 2.0 TDI. > > _Every. Single. One._ 1. This seems like cherry picking. Why are you comparing only direct injection engines? Why not just 2.0 liter engines? Or even 2.0 liter turbo engines? 2. The U.S. doesn’t get the widest selection of diesel engines, so if you are considering only engines available in North America, you are at a disadvantage comparing gas to diesel. Because gas is cheap here, we tend to get the higher output gas engines and no diesel engines at all. I think looking over the range of engines available in other countries would tend to show that diesels generate more torque than comparable displacement gas engines. 3. Your statement is wrong. The VW 2.0L TDI generates 236 lb/ft of torque. The 2.0L gas direct injection turbo in the Mini Cooper S generates only 207 lb/ft. I think some of the VW 2.0 liter turbo direct injection gas variants also produce less torque than the TDI. I don’t know if there are other exceptions. Ironically, we’re arguing the same point. Diesel engine performance is worse than comparable gas engine performance. People shouldn’t buy diesels in the U.S. for better performance. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/25 "2018-04-18T18:19:36Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > 1. This seems like cherry picking. Why are you comparing only direct injection engines? Why not just 2.0 liter engines? Or even 2.0 liter turbo engines? > 2. The U.S. doesn’t get the widest selection of diesel engines, so if you are considering only engines available in North America, you are at a disadvantage comparing gas to diesel. Because gas is cheap here, we tend to get the higher output gas engines and no diesel engines at all. I think looking over the range of engines available in other countries would tend to show that diesels generate more torque than comparable displacement gas engines. > 3. Your statement is wrong. The VW 2.0L TDI generates 236 lb/ft of torque. The 2.0L gas direct injection turbo in the Mini Cooper S generates only 207 lb/ft. I think some of the VW 2.0 liter turbo direct injection gas variants also produce less torque than the TDI. I don’t know if there are other exceptions. > > Ironically, we’re arguing the same point. Diesel engine performance is worse than comparable gas engine performance. People shouldn’t buy diesels in the U.S. for better performance. If you amend your earlier statement from “diesel cars have more torque” to “diesel TRUCKS have more torque” that would have been almost 100% correct across the board for 2500 and 3500 series trucks. The “torque wars” between competing truck brands is as fierce as the “horsepower wars” between the same brands on their musclecars is. The current generations of 6.7L Cummins make 930 ft/lbs of torque, while the 6.7L Powerstroke from Ford and the 6.6L Duramax from GM make 935 pounds feet and 925 pounds feet respectively. This is in addition to packing anywhere from 370hp in the Cummins to the 450hp in the Ford. If you haven’t looked, the 5th wheel trailering capabilities have shot upwards to reflect that in recent years. The Cummins is now up iver 30,000 pounds with the fift wheel and the right rearend/engine combo. That’s literally ASTOUNDING levels of pulling power. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/26 "2018-04-18T18:41:29Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > If you amend your earlier statement from “diesel cars have more torque” to “diesel TRUCKS have more torque” that would have been almost 100% correct across the board for 2500 and 3500 series trucks. The “torque wars” between competing truck brands is as fierce as the “horsepower wars” between the same brands on their musclecars is. > > The current generations of 6.7L Cummins make 930 ft/lbs of torque, while the 6.7L Powerstroke from Ford and the 6.6L Duramax from GM make 935 pounds feet and 925 pounds feet respectively. This is in addition to packing anywhere from 370hp in the Cummins to the 450hp in the Ford. > > If you haven’t looked, the 5th wheel trailering capabilities have shot upwards to reflect that in recent years. The Cummins is now up iver 30,000 pounds with the fift wheel and the right rearend/engine combo. > > That’s literally ASTOUNDING levels of pulling power. the funny thing is that the actual “heavy duty” applications of those engines are significantly derated. - the Powerstroke 6.7 in the F-650/750 is rated for 270 hp, 675 lb-ft - the Cummins B6.7 caps out at 325 hp, 750 lb-ft in non-Ram applications GM hasn’t yet published ratings for the upcoming Silverado 5500-6500 HD, but I expect it’ll be lower as well. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/27 "2018-04-18T18:52:52Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > the funny thing is that the actual “heavy duty” applications of those engines are significantly derated. > > - the Powerstroke 6.7 in the F-650/750 is rated for 270 hp, 675 lb-ft > - the Cummins B6.7 caps out at 325 hp, 750 lb-ft in non-Ram applications > > GM hasn’t yet published ratings for the upcoming Silverado 5500-6500 HD, but I expect it’ll be lower as well. Are you talking about the RWHP was opposed to at the crank? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/28 "2018-04-18T18:54:49Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > I think diesel for passenger cars in the U.S. is going away because it’s expensive to make them emissions compliant and in the U.S., they don’t offer any worthwhile performance advantages over gas cars. Some new car buyers believe that diesel cars are more durable but there are very few new car buyers who want to keep their car for 20 years in any event. People who buy one car every 20 years are also not the most desirable customers for car manufacturers to court. > > Diesel cars get better fuel mileage but in the U.S., the higher cost of diesel fuel offsets the advantage and on a cost per mile basis, it’s basically a wash. When you consider that diesel cars cost thousands of dollars more than comparable gas cars to purchase, the time value of money means that most new car buyers will never earn back enough in fuel savings to justify buying a diesel. > > Diesel cars have more torque but they aren’t any quicker than gas cars. Looking back at old reviews of the Volkswagen Jetta, the cheapest Jetta had the 2.5L gas engine and accelerated exactly as quickly as the diesel version. The diesel version cost 20% more money though. > > Diesel engines also have a bad reputation as polluting. Having spent plenty of time in European cities where “clean diesel” cars dominate, my impression is that they really contribute a lot to air pollution. The news of widespread diesel emissions cheating just confirmed my impression. > > Around the world, there are numerous regulatory efforts to deemphasize diesel cars. Some cities are banning diesel cars from their downtowns. Some jurisdictions want to ban fossil fuel cars altogether in favor of electrics. Why would a carmaker want to spend a ton of money further developing dead-end diesel cars? > > Heavy truck diesels will remain for the foreseeable future. If those trucks’ wheels aren’t turnin’, they ain’t earnin’. The best way to keep them turning is with diesel engines that offer amazing range with long maintenance intervals. Electric trucks don’t have the range to run over 800 miles per day. If you have to hot-swap the batteries at the halfway, you lose time to do the swap and you leave 70% of the truck’s cost by the side of the road slowly recharging. I think that the higher capital investment for electric trucks, charging infrastructure, and swappable batteries means that they won’t be cost-competitive with diesel heavy trucks for a while. I think we may have some self-driving diesel trucks before we have largely replaced the diesel trucks with electric ones. Plus you have to piss in their fuel every so often, otherwise the engine will fall into limp mode. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/29 "2018-04-18T19:09:48Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Are you talking about the RWHP was opposed to at the crank? at the crank. they’re de-rated for longevity reasons. Cummins _can’t_ do RWHP since they just sell engines; they have no idea what kind of vehicle they’ll end up in. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/30 "2018-04-18T20:32:35Z")
The right reasons why diesels have (at least) been a significant part of the European car market and not US have been given, though along with stuff that’s not correct or pretty much irrelevant: 1. it’s been practically easier to achieve very high mpg with diesel than gasoline engine though like any other generalization exceptions can be given 2. those fuel savings are worth more in high consumer motor fuel tax countries than low fuel tax ones like the US especially or Canada and a few others or even middling ones like Japan. 3. in Europe some govts went further and deliberately lowered diesel fuel taxes compared to gasoline In the US diesel cars don’t make sense economically for the great majority of drivers. It’s nothing to do with ‘European technology the US doesn’t have’ nor 30 yrs ago GM diesel cars. As long as there’s practically any additional upfront or expected maintenance cost the $ value of the mpg saving is just too low in the US. They are fine if you feel cool driving one, or for exceptional people who really need the pull in a huge pick up, or perhaps drive an absolute crap load of miles. That’s up to recently. Recently with the realization not only of VW’s deliberate cheating, but more question arising whether anybody can actually produce diesel cars that don’t pollute significantly more (particulate, NOx) in practical operation, the European diesel policy (fuel tax differential and/or looking the other way at unrealistic pollution tests) has become more questionable and diesel has a lot of market share to lose there. In the US private diesel vehicles are a curiosity basically and there’s no reason to think they’ll either disappear or become more than a curiosity any time soon. EV’s have little to do with the prospects for diesel cars specifically, being themselves now and in the near time future a tiny segment of the car market most places. They may remain a relatively small % for decades to come, again especially the US. Diesels for trucks, locomotives, ships and power generation is a different topic. The vast majority of trucks will be powered by IC engines for decades to come. Whether it counts as ‘diesel’ if they are basically diesels modified to run on natural gas, either in spark of dual fuel compression ignition set up, doesn’t seem a profound question to me Likewise engines basically like today’s will power the great majority of ships for probably even more decades to come than trucks; a handful are and more will eventually be LNG fueled. In rail and power generation diesel/IC has and has had plenty of competition for a long time; diesel power plants are a small % of total mW-hr output of electricity worldwide and will remain so. The economics of putting up (or restoring in some cases) electric catenary over huge North American freight rail nets is highly doubtful anytime soon. In some other places it’s more likely or the case already. Again some ‘diesel’ loco’s may be powered by very similar engines burning C/LNG. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/31 "2018-04-18T22:46:41Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > …but more question arising whether anybody can actually produce diesel cars that don’t pollute significantly more (particulate, NOx) in practical operation, the European diesel policy (fuel tax differential and/or looking the other way at unrealistic pollution tests) has become more questionable and diesel has a lot of market share to lose there. . The irony here of course is the upcoming outright bans of emissions in many European urban centers while exempting the diesel engines in question, which as you say, emit more particulates than their gasoline counterparts. The question raised in the article about simply shifting the dirty diesels from the Western Euro countries onto second hand Central and Eastern Euro cities is an interesting one. This article states pretty clearly what you’re talking about, as well as illustrating my point about zero emission standards approaching many European cities within two decades. The only issue I take with the article is the complaint that “EV’s have brakes and tire too”, meaning to imply that brake dust contributes more to particulate emissions than the engines themselves, which sounds like something the Shell Answer Man would say in response to any criticism from oil companies and the refining industry. Read for yourself: [https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/off-limit-new-diesel-cars-evade-european-city-bans/](https://www.euractiv.com/section/air-pollution/news/off-limit-new-diesel-cars-evade-european-city-bans/) ETA: which brings up another irony. European makers of supercars have resorted to having hybrid technologies not to help clean the air, but to augment the power output of cars like the McLaren P1, the Porsche 918 and the Ferrari Laferrari. So (other than the Ferrari) you can toodle around in the city with your P1 supercar in EV mode, but as soon as you hit the countryside, WHAM! 900 plus total combined horsepower. The Ferrari, unlike the other two cars, has no EV only mode, the hybrid system cannot be separated. When asked about it, Ferrari simply stated “We are not interested in making electric cars”. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/32 "2018-04-18T23:56:51Z")
Are diesels still more fuel efficient than gasoline engines, and do they have lower carbon intensity (ie. tons of CO2 per mile driven)? If so, seems like diesel/electric hybrids would be a great combination: -Electric-only operating mode for city driving, where NOx emissions have a bigger practical impact (ie. smog formation) -Higher efficiency/longer range highway driving -Filling up liquid fuel is still way faster than electric charging, so more ideal for road trips The main obstacle I assume would be cost - is there still a need in the current environment for people to have a single car to do everything? It might be more efficient to have a separate city car and highway car, or just own one car (ride share/transit within the city and have a highway car, OR have an electric car and rent a fossil fuel car for road trips). 10 years ago, I would have thought plug-in hybrids would be ubiquitous by now, as it seemed like the obvious way to transition to the electric car economy - but it seems more and more like we might make the shift without a hybrid-heavy interim. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/33 "2018-04-19T02:18:20Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > Are diesels still more fuel efficient than gasoline engines, and do they have lower carbon intensity (ie. tons of CO2 per mile driven)? If so, seems like diesel/electric hybrids would be a great combination: > -Electric-only operating mode for city driving, where NOx emissions have a bigger practical impact (ie. smog formation) > -Higher efficiency/longer range highway driving > -Filling up liquid fuel is still way faster than electric charging, so more ideal for road trips > > The main obstacle I assume would be cost - is there still a need in the current environment for people to have a single car to do everything? It might be more efficient to have a separate city car and highway car, or just own one car (ride share/transit within the city and have a highway car, OR have an electric car and rent a fossil fuel car for road trips). 10 years ago, I would have thought plug-in hybrids would be ubiquitous by now, as it seemed like the obvious way to transition to the electric car economy - but it seems more and more like we might make the shift without a hybrid-heavy interim. I don’t think we’ll see any super intensive changes in the industry until the 10mpg supercars of the world reach their pinnacle and ultimate downfall, which can’t be too far away due to ever increasing CAFE standards for MPGs. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/34 "2018-04-19T03:46:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Plus you have to piss in their fuel every so often, otherwise the engine will fall into limp mode. Nope. Just in the exhaust. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/35 "2018-04-19T06:55:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Another factor is that there are many people who work on diesel so easy to get repaired, EV repair is still a niche. Though this could change. ISn’t there already a ready skillbase in all the _other_ electrical repairpeople? A motor’s a motor, more-or-less, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/36 "2018-04-19T08:25:51Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > and regardless of advances in electric vehicle technology liquid fuel internal combistion engines are likely to remain a viable market segment for the foreseeable future. Although I have quibbles with the rest of your post, this is my most fundamental disagreement with you. We have, in the past few years, passed the threshold of unforeseeable to foreseeable. It is obvious, now, that the trend to almost complete EV saturation for ground transportation is inevitable. The exact timeframe is uncertain, but it is on the order of decades, just as it was in the low decades between the first viable cars and the virtual extinction of animals as transportation. Of course, horses and pack animals continue to serve niche markets; animals are nevertheless still dead as ground transportation. Likewise, the continued existence of ICE vehicles in _some_ narrow role a century from now does not mean that EVs will not have taken over a few decades from now. There is no likely scenario in which diesel use does not plummet 20+ years from now. Virtually every niche where it is used will be better served by EVs. The only factor that is likely to slow the fall, even slightly, is that diesel requires nearly the same refinery infrastructure as kerosene, and kerosene is _not_ going away in a few decades due to its use in aircraft. So we should not expect a massive increase in price due to a downward spiral in demand. The same may not be true of gasoline. I expect a few more Dieselgate-like events in the next decades. Not fraud, necessarily, but consciousness-raising events that expand the awareness of the massive health and environmental damage that fossil fuels cause. Each event will further boost the move to EVs; the reverse, or even a slowdown, will never happen. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/37 "2018-04-19T09:40:09Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Plus you have to piss in their fuel every so often, otherwise the engine will fall into limp mode. I wanted to ask about this. Everyone is referring to diesel as “dirty”. I thought the new fuel mix plus adding urea to the exhaust solved a lot of the particulate emissions issues. Are the new DEF diesels still considerably “dirtier” than comparable gas versions? As you probably remember, I bought a new Cummins TD recently and one big surprise for me is the lack of a diesel smell. I had one of the old Navistar 7.3s back in the 90’s, and the difference is amazing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/38 "2018-04-19T12:11:13Z")
Many have pointed to Europe for a good diesel market, though that was artificial as many places (as mentioned), Gasoline taxes are higher then diesel, so not a fair statement when you artificially outprice one fuel. That does not equate that people would chose diesel given the equal choice. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/39 "2018-04-19T12:13:19Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I wanted to ask about this. Everyone is referring to diesel as “dirty”. I thought the new fuel mix plus adding urea to the exhaust solved a lot of the particulate emissions issues. Are the new DEF diesels still considerably “dirtier” than comparable gas versions? > > … IDK but many states exempt diesel from emission test (smog checks), mainly because they weren’t able to pass them. But even if they can now when new, would the be able to keep it up every year, and is there a incentive if there is no testing? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611/40 "2018-04-19T12:16:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > ISn’t there already a ready skillbase in all the _other_ electrical repairpeople? A motor’s a motor, more-or-less, yes? Read about getting Tesla’s repaired and I don’t think you will feel this way. Yes in time it will become more common, and EV’s will hopefully use parts that don’t require specific model training, but diesels are there already and have been for decades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diesels-going-away-again/812611.md?page=3)