# Are 'diet' sodas unhealthy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019 "2009-08-28T12:26:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/41 "2009-08-29T20:07:25Z")
On a somewhat-related question, do diet sodas stain your teeth more than regular sodas? My teeth have gotten much yellower since switching from regular Coke to Diet Coke a couple years ago. I don’t smoke or drink coffee, so those are out. I’m wondering if Diet Coke contains more/different color additives than regular; or if it’s unrelated (i.e., drinking either for x amount of years would color the teeth; brushing habits changed, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/42 "2009-08-29T21:41:10Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > In statistics we have a concept called confidence. The numbers of usage are huge. I am fairly confident that its safe. LOL. Statistical confidence is not related to your personal feeling of safety. And number of usage are irrelevant if the users are not part of a study. There are plenty of health problems that have increased over the years that we aren’t completely explained yet. Just the fact that there is a large usage of a product does not mean it is safe. > [@HorseloverFat](#): > > Your comment is one of my pet peeves. You cannot sit on the fence when there is overwhelming evidence. […] Actually, all evidence points to be it being true with a high level of confidence. While there are some studies to suggest it’s not a major risk for certain things, 1) there is not “overwhelming” evidence and 2) it’s only been tested as a risk for a few small specific things and 3) its clear that you just really like the word ‘confidence’ > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Interesting how many of these harmful or potentially hazardous substances are “natural” (i.e. opium, tobacco and safrole (found in sassafras). Aspartame is a simple compound made up of two amino acids, which while natural in themselves become “unnatural” when combined. :rolleyes: Keep your rolleyeyes to yourself. :rolleyes: You are being persnickety about the use of the term ‘natural’ without cause - it’s obvious to anyone that there are different meanings of the term, and a specific one is meant in this context that is applicable. If you want to find a more specific and technical term that you like better, by all means do, but don’t pretend that you are making any kind of actual meaningful argument. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/43 "2009-08-30T02:44:12Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > You are being persnickety about the use of the term ‘natural’ without cause - it’s obvious to anyone that there are different meanings of the term, and a specific one is meant in this context that is applicable. If you want to find a more specific and technical term that you like better, by all means do, but don’t pretend that you are making any kind of actual meaningful argument. Whatever are you going on about? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/44 "2009-08-30T08:34:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Whatever are you going on about? I just find it silly when people make snide comments about the word ‘natural’ as though it’s being used in the generic sense when clearly it’s being meant in the more specific sense. With regards to your comment that somehow one molecule sharing similar atoms to another molecule makes them magically equivalent, that’s demonstrably bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/45 "2009-08-30T22:14:36Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I just find it silly when people make snide comments about the word ‘natural’ as though it’s being used in the generic sense when clearly it’s being meant in the more specific sense. You misunderstand me (whether wilfully or not, I can’t determine). There are obviously many people who think a substance is safe to ingest because it occurs in nature, generally as something contained in a plant or animal (though the definition often gets stretched in an interesting way). They further give relatively unknown/untested “natural” substances the benefit of the doubt as far as a role in the human diet or in treating disease, because they are, well, “natural” and the “natural” world has been established for our benefit in contrast to the artificial substances conceived by man.\* I found it noteworthy that another poster’s list of substances initially believed to be fine to ingest but whose detrimental qualities appeared later, includes several “natural” ones. > [@](#): > > With regards to your comment that somehow one molecule sharing similar atoms to another molecule makes them magically equivalent, that’s demonstrably bunk. I did not say this. I did not compare aspartame to any other molecule, but merely noted aspartame is a simple compound composed of two (naturally-occurring) amino acids. And I repeat that any “unhealthiness” of diet sodas stems mostly from the fact that it’s healthier for you to drink other beverages like fruit juices, not because aspartame causes cancer or chronic diseases - claims that have repeatedly been demonstrated to be bunk. \*I know this sounds weird - the idea that living things somehow altruistically work together to produce things specifically of benefit to man, but when _man_ does it there’s something nasty and underhanded about the process, but a lot of personal belief systems proceed under that assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/46 "2009-08-31T00:03:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And I repeat that any “unhealthiness” of diet sodas stems mostly from the fact that it’s healthier for you to drink other beverages like fruit juices, not because aspartame causes cancer or chronic diseases - claims that have repeatedly been demonstrated to be bunk. You can read the response made by Soffritti to criticisms of the study [here](http://www.ehponline.org/docs/2008/10881/letter.html#resp). Dismissing a scientific report as demonstrably ‘bunk’ without a valid argument isn’t good science. Given the findings, further research needs to take place. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/47 "2009-08-31T00:10:59Z")
While most “natural” vs “artificial” rhetoric is bunk, there are some ways in which it makes sense. Particularly, there is the tendency for people to make artificial substances as purified, simplified, and monotonal as possible. For example, the medicine marinol contains only the chemical THC, and many people report it is worse for treating glaucoma, nausea, etc (because it is too hallucinogenic, it feels weird, etc.) than actual marijuana which is a ‘dirty’ mix of many cannabinoids (but a mix perfected through generations of selective breeding). (Of course, “natural” marijuana is still quite harmful in large+frequent doses.) A mineral supplement will normally contain the element in just one form, often an oxide, while food will have it many different compounds and chelated with various proteins, aiding absorption. An ‘artificial’ exercise machine will purify a motion into just one degree of freedom, and fitness enthusiasts will all profess that using ‘natural’ barbells stresses many more muscles. Real sport stresses and stretches many more muscles still. Finally, in the case of sweetners, aspartame is typically included all by itself, while research shows that mixing different artificial sweetners together improves their overal taste. In theory, it would also smooth out their harm potential, if any. Artificial things can be made more hollistic, but for the time being they are usually not. There are unfortunate practical, financial, and legal incentives to purifying, simplifying, and monotonising when creating something artificial, but if we all just realize this is a problem then we could _easily_ rectify it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/48 "2009-08-31T00:35:13Z")
Your link also provides the criticisms of Magnuson et al (listed above the Soffriti response on the same page) which are answered incompletely and unsatisfactorily by Soffriti, in my opinion. Soffriti starts out by pulling the old “pharma shill” ploy, attacking Magnuson for having (co)authored a study supported by a maker of aspartame. Soffriti ignores calls for more information that would be important to anyone trying to replicate his results (apparently lumping these into critiques he views as "trivial) and doesn’t address the fact that his control rats had unusually low levels of leukemias/lymphomas (the aspartame-fed rats had incidences of these diseases within the normal range). Soffriti closes with these comments: "The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) did not make public the contents of their review, but rather they issued a short press release a full year after the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) concluded its evaluation, and coincidently, just days before I presented new aspartame data in a lecture at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York (FDA 2007). I find it unfortunate that some scientists have such a low tolerance for original, independent scientific research" How professional - he insinuates that the FDA tried to spike his guns by releasing their own conclusions before his all-imporant lecture at Mount Sinai (self-persecution complex much?), then snottily refers to scientists who “have such a low tolerance for original, independent scientific research”. :rolleyes: All that’s missing is self-comparisons to Galileo. If some other group that employs good science manages to replicate the work of the Turkey Tetrazzini Foundation, there’ll be true fodder for discussion. Until then I place this organization’s outpourings in roughly the same class as those of the Weston Price Foundation (another outfit that claims it’s got the goods on things overwhelmingly viewed as safe/beneficial, such as water fluoridation and soy-based foods). **Alex\_Dubinsky** appears to believe that supplements/medications are more “holistic” and free from side effects if they are mixes of compounds as in the original plant than as compounds purified by man. This belief follows from the idea that Nature/God created complex natural substances for the benefit of man and that we are tampering with all that goodness by isolating and purifying the active agents. In reality what we’ve done is filtered out the inactive and interfering substances in the complex mixture, and made it possible to standardize doses of potent agents that can be especially harmful when we overdose, which is more likely when we consume variable whole plant mixes. In some cases it may be true that there are extra substances in the plant whose importance in boosting/altering a drug’s effects may not have been originally appreciated. The answer in those cases is to standardize levels of those additional compounds as well. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/49 "2009-08-31T00:59:10Z")
I’d recommend anyone sufficiently interested should follow the link to read both sides of the debate, rather than just **Jackmannii** ’s creative editing and transparent bias. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/50 "2009-08-31T01:05:04Z")
**Does this soda make me look fat?** Diet soda is associated with obesity: > [@](#): > > June 13, 2005 – People who drink diet soft drinks don’t lose weight. In fact, they gain weight, a new study shows. > > The findings come from eight years of data collected by Sharon P. Fowler, MPH, and colleagues at the University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio. Fowler reported the data at the annual meeting of the American Diabetes Association in San Diego. > > “What didn’t surprise us was that total soft drink use was linked to overweight and obesity,” Fowler tells WebMD. “What was surprising was when we looked at people only drinking diet soft drinks, their risk of obesity was even higher.” > > In fact, when the researchers took a closer look at their data, they found that nearly all the obesity risk from soft drinks came from diet sodas. > > “There was a 41% increase in risk of being overweight for every can or bottle of diet soft drink a person consumes each day,” Fowler says. As far as I can tell, the study didn’t explicitly consider reverse causality. But the article said, “Fowler points to a recent study in which feeding artificial sweeteners to rat pups made them crave more calories than animals fed real sugar.” Cite: > **[Health & Diet](https://www.webmd.com/diet/default.htm)** > > From healthy diet plans to helpful weight loss tools, here you'll find WebMD's latest diet news and information. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/51 "2009-08-31T01:17:58Z")
In all the studies of diet drinks, and diet sweeteners there is one thing that has never be statistically linked to thier use. Weight loss, or moderation of weight gain. In fact, if you add saccharine to the feed of cattle, and make no other change, they gain weight. In 1910 folks drank 6 ounces of Coke, and found it satisfying. It had cane sugar in it. Now days, folks repeatedly slug down 20 ounce diet drinks multiple times a day. And while that was happening, the population gained weight. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/52 "2009-08-31T01:37:31Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > In all the studies of diet drinks, and diet sweeteners there is one thing that has never be statistically linked to thier use. > > Weight loss, or moderation of weight gain. > > In fact, if you add saccharine to the feed of cattle, and make no other change, they gain weight. > > In 1910 folks drank 6 ounces of Coke, and found it satisfying. It had cane sugar in it. Now days, folks repeatedly slug down 20 ounce diet drinks multiple times a day. And while that was happening, the population gained weight. > > Tris This is fascinating if it is true. Can you back up that assertion at all? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/53 "2009-08-31T02:00:39Z")
IcSoT: See my post at the bottom of the previous page. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/54 "2009-08-31T02:20:16Z")
Most research suggest that a causal link between intake of sweeteners and weight gain would be unlikely, and is instead an effect. > [@](#): > > Intense sweeteners have never been found to cause weight gain in humans. ([Rolls 1991](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/4/872)) A more recent 10 week clinical trial addressing the link between sucrose, sweeteners and weight gain, supported this, i.e. energy intake, body weight, fat mass, and blood pressure went up with sugar, but not with sweeteners ([Raben _et al._ 2002](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/4/721)). ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/55 "2009-08-31T03:13:44Z")
The Raben study is interesting, and was not available when I made my investigations. However, it is not exactly on point, since sucrose, and sweeteners were supplements, to an existing ad lib diet. Sucrose caused additional weight gain, sweeteners did not. I don’t have the links to the animal studies from my investigation, they were all from prior to 2000. Not sure if I will be looking into it all again. If I do I will be sure to post links here. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/56 "2009-08-31T03:20:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > I’d recommend anyone sufficiently interested should follow the link to read both sides of the debate, rather than just **Jackmannii** ’s creative editing and transparent bias. Thanks for your responsive followup. Others “biased” towards good science will want to check out the [Multple Sclerosis Foundation’s article](http://www.msfacts.org/article-details.aspx?articleID=40) on the aspartame scare, look at the studies and reviews available in the [Pub Med](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed) searchable scientific literature database (these include over 100 toxicological and other studies that went into the FDA’s determination that aspartame is safe), read the article on [snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/aspartame.asp) or look at the research summarized on [this site](http://www.aspartame.org/aspartame_experts.html) (which has links to many other good articles on the subject). ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/57 "2009-08-31T03:30:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > **Alex\_Dubinsky** appears to believe that supplements/medications are more “holistic” and free from side effects if they are mixes of compounds as in the original plant than as compounds purified by man. This belief follows from the idea that Nature/God created complex natural substances for the benefit of man and that we are tampering with all that goodness by isolating and purifying the active agents. In reality what we’ve done is filtered out the inactive and interfering substances in the complex mixture, and made it possible to standardize doses of potent agents that can be especially harmful when we overdose, which is more likely when we consume variable whole plant mixes. In some cases it may be true that there are extra substances in the plant whose importance in boosting/altering a drug’s effects may not have been originally appreciated. The answer in those cases is to standardize levels of those additional compounds as well. Please mind what words you place in others’ mouthes. Do not insult me by telling me where my ideas come from. I came in to politely mention a facet of the issue, a modest way by which our current set of products are imperfect, included a few varied examples. And in turn you lump me with everyone else you think you’re arguing against. Congratulations on being a subtle thinker. I’m sure the rest of what you’re saying must be equally well weighed. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/58 "2009-08-31T03:54:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > Most research suggest that a causal link between intake of sweeteners and weight gain would be unlikely, and is instead an effect. > ([Rolls 1991](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/4/872)) > > A more recent 10 week clinical trial addressing the link between sucrose, sweeteners and weight gain, supported this, i.e. energy intake, body weight, fat mass, and blood pressure went up with sugar, but not with sweeteners ([Raben _et al._ 2002](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/4/721)). There’s a nice literature review that I found at your website: [“Nonnutritive sweetener consumption in humans: effects on appetite and food intake and their putative mechanisms”](http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/1) byRichard D Mattes and Barry M Popkin (2009). Amazingly, the full text article is available, which I only skimmed. In the first paragraph of the conclusion it says, “Although the safety of approved NNS has been established with respect to acute toxicity and longer-term pathologies (eg carcinogenesis), their influence on appetite feeding, energy balance, and body weight has not been fully characterized.” Continuing, they indicate that evidence that NNSs either help us or hurt us in terms of weight gain is lacking or insufficiently established. As always, more and better research is called for. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019/59 "2009-08-31T04:49:58Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > In 1910 folks drank 6 ounces of Coke, and found it satisfying. It had cane sugar in it. Now days, folks repeatedly slug down 20 ounce diet drinks multiple times a day. And while that was happening, the population gained weight. Note that regular HFCS sodas have also gone to 32oz or more. There does not appear to be a _causal link_, (as Captain\_Awesome sez) but a link due to sampling. In other words, it’s not that drinking diet sodas make you fat, it’s that fat dudes drink diet sodas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-diet-sodas-unhealthy/508019.md?page=2)