# Are doctors coming to the US in "droves" because they are "fed up with socialized medicine"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876 "2009-08-09T22:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/1 "2009-08-09T22:39:03Z")
…according to a family member of mine who is a nurse. Is this at all true? Are there any numbers on this sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/2 "2009-08-09T23:31:48Z")
There is a demand for medical practitioners in this country Immigrating to this country as a doctor is very easy Taxes are low in this country, relatively Doctors earn far more in this country relative to other societies I would invite you to draw your own conclusion on why doctors are coming to the US in droves, but I’d suggest that it’s not because they’re “fed up” with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/3 "2009-08-09T23:40:02Z")
According to a letter in Canadian Family Physician, a review found that of all medical school graduates from Canada’s 16 medical schools who graduated 1991-1995, 18% had moved their practice to the United States by 2003. ([Cite](http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2004/Mar/vol50-mar-letters-1.asp)) ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/4 "2009-08-09T23:42:27Z")
Aren’t most doctors who emigrate to the US from India or Asia? If that’s the case, then the reason has probably more to do with the higher standard of living than anything to do with socialized medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/5 "2009-08-10T00:29:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > According to a letter in Canadian Family Physician, a review found that of all medical school graduates from Canada’s 16 medical schools who graduated 1991-1995, 18% had moved their practice to the United States by 2003. > > ([Cite](http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2004/Mar/vol50-mar-letters-1.asp)) True, but if you don’t want to move to rural, outside-of-southern-Ontario, Canada, where else are you going to go? I note that the author of that letter spends much of his time talking about the physicians graduated by a medical school in southwestern Ontario (University of Western Ontario, located in London, Ontario) and how they move to the US–well, if you’ve ever known people who go to UWO–and I’ve known many–you know that they would never consider going to Swift Current, SK; Labrador City, NL; or Big Valley, AB. Knowing them, I’d guess that for many of them, a big city in Ontario such as Toronto, is where they want to be. If they can’t manage that, then Montreal or Vancouver will do. But there are many similar big cities in the US–more than in Canada–so why not look there? And the climate is probably better too. It’s not easy attracting physicians to unpopulated rural areas of Canada, especially with our winters. Not saying you’re wrong, **Martin** , and you may well be right. But what I am trying to get across is that there can be many reasons why a Canadian-trained physician might look to the US, rather than just being “fed up with socialized medicine.” ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/6 "2009-08-10T00:49:32Z")
I’d guess medical proffesionals are moving to the US for the same reason the NHS over here in Britain is bringing in doctors from other countries; better wages, and a demand for staff. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/7 "2009-08-10T00:56:38Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > According to a letter in Canadian Family Physician, a review found that of all medical school graduates from Canada’s 16 medical schools who graduated 1991-1995, 18% had moved their practice to the United States by 2003. > > ([Cite](http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2004/Mar/vol50-mar-letters-1.asp)) How does that compare with the proportion of other professional graduates (law, engineering, accounting etc) moving from Canada to the US? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/8 "2009-08-10T01:10:15Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > How does that compare with the proportion of other professional graduates (law, engineering, accounting etc) moving from Canada to the US? No idea, and I don’t plan to do the research. Just knowing what I know about the professions, I would be somewhat surprised if there were as many lawyers and accountants making the jump simply because those two professions require a lot of additional education and adjustment to the American system than does medicine. The human body stays the same when you cross the border, but the entire legal system changes, as do the regulations governing accounting. Engineering, like medicine, is a field where the central ideas obviously won’t change from country to country so I wouldn’t be surprised if engineers are more prone to move from one country to another than are lawyers and accountants. I also believe that many countries it is a very easy process moving from country A to country B and getting your M.D. recognized and getting approval to practice medicine. I would be surprised if it was that easy for things like CPA licensing and admittance to a state bar or etc. Also, **Spoons** I made no attempt to explain the statistics I linked, I don’t presume to know why a Canadian medical student is moving from A to B. I just provided the link since prior to that point we had not actually established how many Canadian physicians were actually moving to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/9 "2009-08-10T01:59:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > According to a letter in Canadian Family Physician, a review found that of all medical school graduates from Canada’s 16 medical schools who graduated 1991-1995, 18% had moved their practice to the United States by 2003. > > ([Cite](http://www.cfpc.ca/cfp/2004/Mar/vol50-mar-letters-1.asp)) That statistic is not very meaningful without knowing how many US medical school graduates leave the country to start their practices. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/10 "2009-08-10T02:05:59Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Immigrating to this country as a doctor is very easy Do you have a cite, because I’m pretty sure this isn’t true. In fact, I’m pretty sure that an immigrating doctor would have to complete a US medical residency no matter how long they have been practicing in their home country. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/11 "2009-08-10T02:17:31Z")
Even though it contains little in the way of analysis of physicians’ motivation for emigrating, [this recent free full text article from the CMAJ](http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/176/8/1083) will be of interest. If nothing else, take a peek at the figure and the tables. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/12 "2009-08-10T02:29:14Z")
Probably not the point the OP was trying to make but if his claim is true wouldn’t it be an indication that the American health care system is designed to favor physicians? Which I guess is great if you’re a physician but why should the rest of us want to put up with it? Are there “droves” of patients coming to the US because they are “fed up with socialized medicine”? ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/13 "2009-08-10T02:35:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are there “droves” of patients coming to the US because they are “fed up with socialized medicine”? Actually, that was her _other_ point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/14 "2009-08-10T03:14:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are there “droves” of patients coming to the US because they are “fed up with socialized medicine”? Droves of people who have the money to benefit from it, as I understand. When you design a system that values the lives and health of people according to how much money they have, naturally people with lots of money show up to take advantage of it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/15 "2009-08-10T04:38:38Z")
My point was that there are a lot of people who think the American legal system could use some major reforms. Few of them would claim that the American legal system must be alright because lawyers think it’s great. So, by the same argument, it isn’t evidence that the American medical system is alright if doctors think it’s great. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/16 "2009-08-10T05:33:38Z")
The U.S. is much bigger than Canada population wise, so it is more likely that a Canadian would move here for an opportunity than an American would move to Canada. Look at the Daily Show and see how many Canadians they have on their staff. Look how many people who worked in Saturday Night Live were originally from Canada. Does this mean that Canadian comedians are fleeing “socialized TV (The CBC)” in droves, or are just taking advantage of more opportunities present in a country with almost 10 times the population? I knew a friend who fell off a bike in France and was rushed to the hospital. He said the difference between a French Hospital and an American hospital is that in a French hospital when you are wheeled in, they say “Look at that poor man. We better treat him.” while in an American hospital, they say “Look at that poor man. I wonder if he can pay?” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/17 "2009-08-10T13:45:33Z")
I don’t know if Canadian trained doctors have to do a residency to qualify. I do know that my family physician is American by birth and could presumably move back at any time, but has no interest in doing so. Yes, he could doubtless make more money–probably a good deal more–but he would also have to get into billing, fighting with insurance companies, etc., none of which interests him. My daughter-in-law, a family physician in NYC, would seriously consider moving to Canada. Ontario has a standing offer for US doctors to practice without having to requalify. If a health-care plan doesn’t go through, she might just do it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/18 "2009-08-10T13:58:24Z")
> [@Crawlspace](#): > > Do you have a cite, because I’m pretty sure this isn’t true. In fact, I’m pretty sure that an immigrating doctor would have to complete a US medical residency no matter how long they have been practicing in their home country. I’ve known several _nurses_ who immigrated to the US from the Philippines. When last in the Philippines met an MD who was retraining to be a nurse because nurses find it easier to immigrate to the US. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/19 "2009-08-10T14:07:24Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Taxes are low in this country, relatively Taxes are no lower in the US. It’s been shown repeatedly that once externalities are taken into account (such as health insurance premiums and inheritance taxes), the tax rates are nearly identical. > **[Economy of Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_economies_compared#Taxation)** > > Canada has a highly developed mixed economy. As of 2025, it is the ninth-largest in the world, with a nominal GDP of approximately US$2.39 trillion. Its GDP per capita in purchasing power parity (PPP) international dollars is about 27.5% lower than that of the highest-ranking G7 country. Canada is one of the world's largest trading nations, with a highly globalized economy. In 2021, Canadian trade in goods and services reached $2.016 trillion. Canada's exports totalled Canada has a strong coo... ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876/20 "2009-08-10T14:15:55Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I’ve known several _nurses_ who immigrated to the US from the Philippines. When last in the Philippines met an MD who was retraining to be a nurse because nurses find it easier to immigrate to the US. So true. I met a guy from Malaysia who became a nurse simply because it was so easy for a trained nurse to immigrate to the US. This guy knew all of the angles. He is now a financial planner and tax adviser. Go figure! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-doctors-coming-to-the-us-in-droves-because-they-are-fed-up-with-socialized-medicine/505876.md?page=2)