# Are Dragons Real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2001, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844 "2001-10-22T12:27:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/41 "2001-10-25T13:39:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\ ***Bosda** , I’m not aware of any religion which asserts the existence of dragons. Do you have any particular Chinese faiths in mind? \*\* Taoism? ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/42 "2001-10-25T13:56:53Z")
According to a friend of mine, fossils found in China are still called “dragon bones” today, and are valued in traditional medicines. I tried to argue that that means “dragon” is essentially a mis-translation of the Chinese word, which should have been translated “dinosaur”. The traditional Chinese dragon is then a sort of amateur reconstruction of a dinosaur. My friend (who is Chinese, BTW) didn’t buy it, tho. ---
**Author:** ![nerv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@nerv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nerv)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/43 "2001-10-25T14:59:20Z")
If you’re speaking Japanese, dragons definitely do exist, and you can see them in any number of zoos around the world. The Japanese use the same word for “dragon” and “giraffe”–“kirin”. It’s also, of course, a popular brand of Japanese beer. I can see some possible confusion, though. How would you interpret it is someone said “I had a few too many kirins last night”? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/44 "2001-10-25T18:52:31Z")
I withdraw my ‘troll’ comment. I should have considered the possibility that the belief in dragons was cultural in nature. Still, I’m going to have to stick with ‘silly’; though if the OP had come back in a reasonable amount of time to clarify, I would have happily withdrawn that comment as well. For those still on the Dracula tangent, I would suggest: In Search of Dracula by Raymond T. McNally and Radu Florescu. The best written account I’m aware of documenting the origin of the Dracula mythos. Sadly there seems to be limited evidence, so they round the book out with much less engrossing material such as movie references. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/45 "2001-10-25T19:38:19Z")
**Bosda** : > [@](#): > > Taoism? Errr . . . any details? There are spirits everywhere, but dragons aren’t a part of belief in tao, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/46 "2001-10-25T19:56:30Z")
**Andros:** I understand Taoism as cultural artifact, not doctrinal Taoism, accepts dragons. (For a comparison, think about Christian angels – other than the generic “heavenly messenger” concept, angelology is an accrual, and no strict definition of Christianity requires belief in them – except that Bibliocentric versions would expect that what little the Bible says about them be accepted.) In the same way, the worldview of individual Taoists is likely to include dragons as supernatural manifestations, though AFAIK Lao-Tse made only one passing and metaphorical reference to them. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/47 "2001-10-25T20:10:51Z")
My guess on _linnorm_’s translation would be “lake serpent” – I’ve never seen _linn_ as meaning or connoting “death.” Compare the Nessie and related legends; in view of the Norse connection with Scotland, there may be some connection (cultural myth transferred, that is). Coincidentally, the AP put out a rather extensive report two days ago on efforts by Vlad’s former capital to attract tourism and cinema production to Transylvania – I gather it’s been the least prosperous part of Romania for most of the 20th century. Final comment would be that while T. Rex has been extinct since 1973 (as a band) and was exclusively North American (as a dinosaur), carnosaurs in the strict sense were common throughout Europe, and both carnosaurs and tyrannosaurids were common in Northern China and Mongolia. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/48 "2001-10-25T20:15:10Z")
Gotcha. Thanks, **Poly**. **Bosda** , I do think that it’s inaccurate to say that because someone is Chinese, dragons therefore play a major part in his or her religion. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/49 "2001-10-26T13:51:37Z")
PolyCarp-I said Heath-y’know a meadow kinda place. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/50 "2001-10-26T23:53:42Z")
**andros** , sorry 'bout not replying sooner- my computer was down for its semi-annual Windows Crash-A-Thon[sup]TM[/sup]. Anyhow, I had always understood the Dragon/Devil idiom to be fairly longstanding, but a more-than-cursory (though less-than-obsessive) web search failed to turn up any sort of cite that wasn’t specifically talking about Mr. Stoker’s novel. In other words, inconclusive, at best. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/51 "2001-10-27T00:25:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > What? No one’s going to mention _ **The Flight of Dragons** _ by Peter Dickinson? I’ve read that, I thought it was pretty ridiculous. Never could tell if the author was trying to be serious or funny, though I’m leaning towards the latter. The old-style illustrations were interesting, but the kind of creature he describes is ludicrous. Giant, living blimps. Yeeeah. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/52 "2001-10-27T02:26:06Z")
that’s the problem of trying to rationalize the dragons some people carry in spirit; you cannot have something that flies and is that incredibly huge. the best balance would be somewhere around the size of an adult human male, with an obscene wingspan, and a diet of two cows a day. somewhat less impressive and efficient than the 30-100 foot behemoths with more lizardly diets that most prefer, admittably. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/53 "2001-10-27T16:39:15Z")
**saepiroth** , I think prehistoric pterasaurs were considerably larger than human, even when not taking into account wingspan. For example: [http://www.nps.gov/bibe/pterosr.htm](http://www.nps.gov/bibe/pterosr.htm) This one was 18 feet long. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/54 "2001-10-27T18:31:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > **saepiroth, I think prehistoric pterasaurs were considerably larger than human, even when not taking into account wingspan.** Correction/clarification/nitpick: **Some** pter **o** saurs were considerably larger than a human, **but only** in terms of wingspan. Even the largest pterosaur (the linked-to _Quetzalcoatlus_ - by the way, an 18’ wingspan for a _Quetzalcoatlus_ is on the _low_ end; some have estimated wingspans of up to 50’ or more!) probably weighed no more than about 140 lbs and had comparatively small bodies. _Pteranodon_, another large pterosaur, had about a 20-25’ wingspan, but probably weighed no more than about 25 lbs. The majority of pterosaurs were raven- or chicken-sized. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/55 "2001-10-27T19:11:26Z")
and that’s my point. you just can’t have something too much larger than human without giving it an obscene wingspan. even then, when you get too much larger the wing bones start to fail under the sheer stress. if you allow traditional dragons to have some exotic bone composition, say some form of carbon chain or crystal, you’d still have something with a wingspread measuring in acres. there’s a balance there; whatever is flying must either have a huge relative wingspan or it must flap it’s wings very fast. neither seems particularly viable for traditional dragons, so i like to think of dragons as things not much larger than a person, like my previous description. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/56 "2001-10-27T19:18:54Z")
The pterasaur in my link doesn’t has a wingspan of 18 feet; it is 18 feet **long**. The wingspan was **36-39 feet**. Considerably larger than a human, even without wings. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/57 "2001-10-27T19:23:58Z")
longer than a human, yes, but they were very slender. their bodies probably didn’t weigh much more than the aformentioned 140 pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/58 "2001-10-27T19:50:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by saepiroth \* > \*\*longer than a human, yes, but they were very slender. their bodies probably didn’t weigh much more than the aformentioned 140 pounds. \*\* Do you have a source for that? I couldn’t find any references stating their slenderness or weight. ---
**Author:** ![saepiroth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@saepiroth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saepiroth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/59 "2001-10-27T19:52:19Z")
I will dig one up for you. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844/60 "2001-10-27T19:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > JUNG, Carl > > Dragons mean… > > The dragon is a primary symbol that is part of the Great Mother archetype. It represents the overbearing social aspect of the Great Mother. This must be slain to free the hero. > > Sources… > > ‘The Secret Language of Dreams’ David Fontana and… > [@](#): > > The Ouroboros is represented either as a serpent or as a serpentine dragon. It sometimes appears with two feet, sometimes with four, and occasionally has bat-like wings. > > The psychoanalyst Carl Jung recognized the supreme importance of this symbol. He asserted “the Uroboros – the dragon devouring itself tail first – is the most basic mandala of alchemy” (Psychology and Alchemy, Princeton U. Press, 1980, p. 126). Elsewhere in the same work, Jung wrote: > > “The dragon is probably the oldest pictorial symbol in alchemy of which we have documentary evidence. It appears as the [OUROBOROS], the tail-eater, in the Codex Marcianus, which dates from the tenth or eleventh century, together with the legend [EN TO PAN] (the One, the All). Time and again the alchemists reiterate that the opus proceeds from the one and leads back to the one, that it is a sort of circle like the dragon biting its own tail” (Ibid., p. 293). > > Jung described the Ouroboros as the “dragon that devours, fertilizes, begets, slays, and brings itself to life again. Being hermaphroditic, it is compounded of opposites and is at the same time their uniting symbol” (Ibid., p. 372). and… > [@](#): > > Dragon - May be a representation of the unconscious when it is guarding treasure or a cave containing treasure. The treasure is your true self. The dragon-slayer is a representation of Jung’s first stage of the individuation process where the ego’s heroic struggle lifts itself out of the unconscious to establish its control of the unconscious forces.The dragon may represent the ‘devouring aspect’ of your mother. Slaying the dragon would therefore mean putting an end to such motherly attachment. It may represent the generative power of (Mother) Nature. A winged dragon may symbolize transcendence, a passing from a ‘lower’ to a ‘higher’ level of personal maturity.\*\* and… > [@](#): > > _Joseph Campbell_ > > On the dragon there are many scales. Every one of them says “Thou Shalt.” > Kill the dragon “Thou Shalt.” > When one has killed that dragon, one has become The Child. and… [this](http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:r69qRkkxg44:www.dracoblu.com/essaycreate.html++Joseph+Campbell,+dragon&hl=en) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-dragons-real/88844.md?page=4)