# Are electoral college votes secret? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120 "2016-11-09T00:35:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/1 "2016-11-09T00:35:40Z")
With Trump running, and rumors of Russian interference in the election, I was speculating on how a future billionaire or foreign government could tamper with the Presidential election. I thought about the electoral college, and how it’s a lot easier to target and coerce 50 voters than even a few thousand. Then I wondered if that was even possible. If, like in public voting, the ballots are secret, then it’d become a lot more difficult, especially in states with lots of votes (the very ones more likely to be targeted by such conspiracies). Google wasn’t helpful to this question. Can someone enlighten me? ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/2 "2016-11-10T21:35:51Z")
They’re public record. You can go view the certificates of vote for the 2012 election here: > **[The Electoral College](https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college)** > > It's a Process, not a Place The Electoral College is how we refer to the process by which the United States elects the President, even though that term does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. In this process, the States (which includes the District... ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/3 "2016-11-10T21:53:34Z")
Electors are chosen for their pledges to support the winning candidates so they have to reveal their bona fides to the parties that nominate them. In some states, at least it used to be that the electors’ names were on the Presidential ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/4 "2016-11-10T22:15:23Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > With Trump running, and rumors of Russian interference in the election, I was speculating on how a future billionaire or foreign government could tamper with the Presidential election. I thought about the electoral college, and how it’s a lot easier to target and coerce 50 voters than even a few thousand. > > Then I wondered if that was even possible. If, like in public voting, the ballots are secret, then it’d become a lot more difficult, especially in states with lots of votes (the very ones more likely to be targeted by such conspiracies). > > Google wasn’t helpful to this question. Can someone enlighten me? > [@Leaper](#): > > With Trump running, and rumors of Russian interference in the election, I was speculating on how a future billionaire or foreign government could tamper with the Presidential election. I thought about the electoral college, and how it’s a lot easier to target and coerce 50 voters than even a few thousand. > > Then I wondered if that was even possible. If, like in public voting, the ballots are secret, then it’d become a lot more difficult, especially in states with lots of votes (the very ones more likely to be targeted by such conspiracies). > > Google wasn’t helpful to this question. Can someone enlighten me? There are 538 voters in the electoral college, so your conspiracy may have to be a bit bigger than you assume. It’s up to the state. Some states require electors to vote publicly. Some even impose penalties on “faithless electors” who don’t vote for their declared candidate, which would only work if you knew how all the electors voted. Other states have electors vote confidentially. In one recent election, Minnesota had a faithless elector who voted for John Edwards instead of John Kerry. Since Kerry lost the election by a wide margin this was irrelevant. But to this day, Minnesota’s private electoral ballot means that no one knows who the faithless elector was. > **[MPR: Minnesota elector gives Edwards a vote; Kerry gets other nine](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/12/13_ap_electors/)** > > \- One of Minnesota's 10 presidential electors broke from the pack and cast a vote Monday for John Edwards, the Democratic vice presidential running mate for John Kerry. > [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > They’re public record. You can go view the certificates of vote for the 2012 election here: > > [The Electoral College | National Archives](https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/2012/certificates-of-vote.html) You can review the number of electors who voted for each candidate but not the name of the elector who voted for each candidate. I believe different states have different processes for certifying the results of the electoral vote and transmitting the results to the Senate. If you look at Minnesota’s certificate of vote for that election, all the electors had to certify the vote total including the vote for Edwards, but you still can’t tell who cast that vote. > **[The Electoral College](https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college)** > > It's a Process, not a Place The Electoral College is how we refer to the process by which the United States elects the President, even though that term does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. In this process, the States (which includes the District... ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/5 "2016-11-10T22:55:23Z")
_How_, exactly, do the electors cast their vote? I saw it speculated in another thread that the electoral college as a body could decide not to elect Trump, but do they actually meet as a body? Is there any opportunity for deliberation, discussion or coordination? I actually thought it quite likely if Trump won by one or two electoral votes (or tied) that a rogue elector would try to swing the vote to Clinton (or create a tie, throwing it to the House), but with a large difference in pledged votes, I can’t imagine a large number of electors independently deciding to go rogue with no hope (individually) of affecting the outcome. (Though wouldn’t it be hilarious if, with no desire to actually change the outcome, a large number of Republican electors decide to cast a solitary protest vote for someone else and end up giving it to Clinton? Unlikely, but hilarious.) ETA: Somehow I didn’t see **Tired and Cranky** ’s post before I typed mine. That post suggests (as I thought I remembered) that each state’s electors casts their votes separately, not at some sort of plenary gathering. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/6 "2016-11-11T19:29:57Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > _How_, exactly, do the electors cast their vote? I saw it speculated in another thread that the electoral college as a body could decide not to elect Trump, but do they actually meet as a body? Is there any opportunity for deliberation, discussion or coordination? > > I actually thought it quite likely if Trump won by one or two electoral votes (or tied) that a rogue elector would try to swing the vote to Clinton (or create a tie, throwing it to the House), but with a large difference in pledged votes, I can’t imagine a large number of electors independently deciding to go rogue with no hope (individually) of affecting the outcome. (Though wouldn’t it be hilarious if, with no desire to actually change the outcome, a large number of Republican electors decide to cast a solitary protest vote for someone else and end up giving it to Clinton? Unlikely, but hilarious.) > > ETA: Somehow I didn’t see **Tired and Cranky** ’s post before I typed mine. That post suggests (as I thought I remembered) that each state’s electors casts their votes separately, not at some sort of plenary gathering. See the 12th Amendment: > [@](#): > > The Electors shall meet **in their respective states** , and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;–The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice… The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President to the United States. The Electors don’t gather together, they do it in each state. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/7 "2016-11-12T06:10:42Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > In one recent election, Minnesota had a faithless elector who voted for John Edwards instead of John Kerry. Since Kerry lost the election by a wide margin this was irrelevant. But to this day, Minnesota’s private electoral ballot means that no one knows who the faithless elector was. That’s not correct at all. And he was hardly ‘faithless’, it was a simple mistake. As Matt was approaching age 90, he just misunderstood the instructions and put his Vice-Presidential Ballot in the box first. He recognized the mistake, and tried to correct his ballot, but the Secretary of State (Republican) suddenly decided that there was a rule that electoral ballots could not be corrected. So John Kerry got one less Electoral vote than he should have. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/8 "2016-11-12T08:00:39Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > They’re public record. You can go view the certificates of vote for the 2012 election here: > > [The Electoral College | National Archives](https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/2012/certificates-of-vote.html) The ten of those that I sampled did not state individual votes but the aggregate of the state’s votes plus a list of the state’s electors. A distinction without a difference for 2012 when each state’s electoral votes were unanimous, but would the format of the documents be different if that were not the case? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/9 "2016-11-12T13:44:45Z")
No, but the identity of the electors nearly are. You just voted for one – do you know his/her name? It would be possible to find out, but even the news media doesn’t bother. They have the same status as the delegates your local party sent to the state capital to nominate those candidates in the first place. I was a delegate to a state party convention once, nobody knows that and nobody cared, but there was nothing “secret” about it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/10 "2016-11-12T19:15:12Z")
[List of United States presidential electors, 2016](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_electors,_2016) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/11 "2016-11-12T21:56:04Z")
Take a look at[Missouri’s certificate](https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.archives.gov%2Ffederal-register%2Felectoral-college%2F2012-certificates%2Fpdfs%2Fvote-missouri.pdf). Names, addresses AND votes, all public. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/12 "2016-11-12T22:17:46Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > That’s not correct at all. And he was hardly ‘faithless’, it was a simple mistake. As Matt was approaching age 90, he just misunderstood the instructions and put his Vice-Presidential Ballot in the box first. He recognized the mistake, and tried to correct his ballot, but the Secretary of State (Republican) suddenly decided that there was a rule that electoral ballots could not be corrected. So John Kerry got one less Electoral vote than he should have. Where do you contend the rule allowing a ballot to be recast may be found? And according to accounts I recall, no one stepped forward to try to correct the ballot. Can you cite some authority for this claim? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/13 "2016-11-12T22:22:04Z")
[For example:](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/12/13_ap_electors/) > [@](#): > > One of Minnesota’s 10 presidential electors broke from the pack and cast a vote Monday for John Edwards, the Democratic vice presidential running mate for John Kerry. The other nine Minnesota members of the Electoral College voted for Kerry, who won the state’s popular vote in November. > > \*\*After the state’s Electoral College ceremony concluded, no one stepped foward as the Edwards voter. Most electors chalked the vote up as a mistake rather than a purposeful political statement. > \*\* > “I’m sure somebody made a mistake,” said elector Michael Meuers of Bemidji. “I’m certainly glad that the Electoral College is not separated by one vote.” (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/14 "2016-11-12T22:51:57Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > … You can review the number of electors who voted for each candidate but not the name of the elector who voted for each candidate. … Which would appear to open the door to shenanigans. In states with few votes the defector might be deducible, but in the big states, they could vote as they pleased (whether because of conscience, blackmail, or bribery), without fear of consequences. In fact, when it comes to the close elections of our history, how can we be certain that bribery or blackmailing of electors have _not_ affected outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/15 "2016-11-12T23:45:55Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Take a look at[Missouri’s certificate](https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.archives.gov%2Ffederal-register%2Felectoral-college%2F2012-certificates%2Fpdfs%2Fvote-missouri.pdf). Names, addresses AND votes, all public. Gotta love the one jerk who signed in blue sharpie. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/16 "2016-11-14T21:11:41Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > That’s not correct at all. And he was hardly ‘faithless’, it was a simple mistake. As Matt was approaching age 90, he just misunderstood the instructions and put his Vice-Presidential Ballot in the box first. He recognized the mistake, and tried to correct his ballot, but the Secretary of State (Republican) suddenly decided that there was a rule that electoral ballots could not be corrected. So John Kerry got one less Electoral vote than he should have. Bumping my request for more supporting detail here… ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/17 "2016-11-14T23:45:34Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Gotta love the one jerk who signed in blue sharpie. John Hancock would have been proud. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/18 "2016-11-16T10:43:15Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > That’s not correct at all. And he was hardly ‘faithless’, it was a simple mistake. As Matt was approaching age 90, he just misunderstood the instructions and put his Vice-Presidential Ballot in the box first. He recognized the mistake, and tried to correct his ballot, but the Secretary of State (Republican) suddenly decided that there was a rule that electoral ballots could not be corrected. At this point, I am calling bullshit on the claims in this narrative. There was no attempt to correct the ballot and no sudden ad hoc Republican ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/19 "2016-11-16T11:17:59Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > In fact, when it comes to the close elections of our history, how can we be certain that bribery or blackmailing of electors have _not_ affected outcomes? This quote may come back to haunt this election by Christmas of this year. You can’t tell even if you have a congressional hearing … look how many they have had on the email server thing already with many refusing to answer. This election and all of it’s crazy twist and turns is not over yet … :eek: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120/20 "2016-11-16T14:53:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At this point, I am calling bullshit on the claims in this narrative. There was no attempt to correct the ballot and no sudden ad hoc Republican ruling. Well, that and the facts that 1. Matthew Little was not “approaching 90,” he was 83, which I guess is approaching 90 as long as you aren’t dead yet but it’s more “About 80.” Little was a pretty smart guy and a civil rights fighter his whole life. not some doddering old fool, and assuming he made the error is pure conjecture, not fact. (Also, all ten electors were old.) 2. Actual electors who were there reported surprise and confusion when the votes were formally counted; it was clearly a surprise, which, obviously, it would not have been had someone said “oh no, I put in the wrong name, please let me fix it!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-electoral-college-votes-secret/771120.md?page=2)