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While it is true that those with under $50K annual income don’t drive as much in a day as those who make more than that (some are using public transportation) I know of no studies that support your contention that “the affluent” typically drive much farther to work than do “the Middle Class.”
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A Volt’s battery range, assuming charging availability at work, something “the affluent” can possibly arrange for, can cover 70 to 80 miles of daily commute completely gas-free. That’s not quite a short commute.
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Bottom line though is that the right vehicle will vary on the exact needs of the person/family. What is your typical daily commute and can you charge up there? How often do you travel much farther than your daily commute and how much farther when you do? If considering a BEV is there a need in your household for that car to travel over 75% of its advertised range in one go? Heck it even matters if you care more about energy independence or greenhouse gases.
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Amazingly the Tesla Model S does not need to be charged after each run. More typical BEVs and PHEV are amply fast enough for highway driving. The Volt is no Corvette but it does better both in 0 to 60 and in the quarter mile than the Cruze does. The Ford C-Max Energi is peppier yet. More adequate than its people mover functionality requires.
It’s just common sense. Affluent people choose homes in more secluded locations. They are also more willing to travel farther for the higher paying jobs.
What GM used for it’s sales meme was average driving and not the driving habits of it’s target buyer.
I’ve never seen a parking lot of a business with outlets. Now I’m sure you can post some examples but I’m equally sure they represent less than a fraction of a fraction of the businesses that exist.
Yes, the bottom line is that the right vehicle will vary on the exact needs of the person who purchases it. And the Volts sales represent that reality.
If the Tesla was taken out and run full out for even a few minutes it would greatly reduce it’s range.
Ah. The “common sense” bit. Also known as “it’s just shit I’ve made up.”
No that does not seem like common sense to me. If anything I’d suspect the opposite is true. The lower middle class (or below) drive to where the jobs are no matter how far from their home it may be. The job may be (and increasingly is) far flung but they don’t have much choice. The affluent however can afford to live where they can keep the commute shorter. At the extreme are corporate executives choosing to place the corporate headquarters in the burbs near where they live.
The extreme of course is “the super-commuter” and those workers
The Volt has problems hitting its market. Let’s face it, I am part of that target market, affluent enough and been Jonesing for getting off of gas for years, and I am choosing the C-Max over it. But that warn’t their mistake. I make enough to live closer to my workplace.
A Tesla going all out for a few minutes, drag strip style, sure it would use up some kWhs. But it has some to spare.
The Volt is the quickest car I’ve ever owned. It’s not a sports car, but it’s performance is completely satisfactory.
And, to the other point, I recharge at work, although I don’t have to. I’m seeing more and more charging stations at commercial lots in downtown Seattle.
Walgreens has thousands of them.
I was just going to mention that. The Walgreens a couple of blocks from my in Kansas City has an EV charging station. I need to find out if it is possible to retrofit my brother’s Prius to allow him to use those stations.
Although the context was not charging for customers so much as for employees. And I grant the point that few employee lots at this point have charging availability. Some do but few.
The 70 mile round trip commuter with a Volt is most commonly only displacing half their gas. The Lexus CT 200 hybrid (roughly same price after the Volt’s tax credit) gets 42 MPG combined. (The higher end Lexus GS 450 hybrid only gets 31 MPG.) The Volt when running electric gets 98 MPGe and 37 MPG combined when on gas. If functioning with the gas engine running for half the miles and off the electric motor the other half it still averages a lot better than the luxury hybrid does. (And the reviews of the Lexus are not great.)
Common sense, as in what I’ve observed around me. But to make you happy I googled it. Here’s a study. You can post a study to contradict it.
Table 1 Commuting time, one-way, in minutes by income quintile, 2001, BHPS
Income Quintile _1__2_3_4__5
Commuting time 18 19 23 26 33
Well it’s nice of you to admit they missed their target market considering your promotion of the Volt and the purchase of a car I’ve never heard of.
The Tesla already has a reduced range compared to other cars. You can take a Corvette down to the track and run the piss out of it and drive it home on a tank of gas. That’s not going to happen with a Tesla. More important, you could run a Corvette dry and fill up at a gas station a mile away. A Tesla requires time to recharge assuming the owner can find a place to recharge it.
It’s a yuppy car for those who want to brag about getting off gas. But that market shrinks when cars with greater utility value are available. The Volt is the same way. It’s the greatest thing since sliced bread until it comes time to buy it. Then the target market disappears.
True. On the Top Gear test track, the Roadster only had a range of about 70 miles. However, that’s not everyday conditions either. Unless you regularly road race.
Well lets start with the accuracy of this statement. they don’t have thousands of charging stations. They’ve announced they plan on installing800 stations at a very limited number of cities (Phoenix, Akron, Canton, Columbus and Austin).
From there lets look at the nature of the statement. You posted this as an example of businesses that employees can park their car at and recharge. How many employees do you think this will account for and then apply that to Volt sales numbers. I’m going to guess less than .0001 percent of sales and I think I’m being very generous.
Yup. Top Gear track racing, extreme conditions, all out, and it still managed to go far enough for most people to be able to get their days’ driving done. Even if their day’s driving is on a track.
The issue was a claim that EVs are not fast enough for highways. That is just wrong. Then that the fast enough ones need to be recharged after going fast for a brief time. Also wrong.
Magiver what you observe and what I do are very different critters. Your cite is a 2001 study in the UK excluding people who changed jobs. Unclear if by car or tube or any other mode. Not too impressive that. And even that study of really no applicability to the current United States circumstance and economy found the upper quintile spending 33 minutes commuting one way, highly likely still covered by the Volt’s range, even there and back, if it was typical city and town speeds.
Sorry but I think your claim is BS.
there is no “day’s driving” on a track. It was 55 miles. After that, it’s dead until it’s recharged (unlike other cars). So the reality of it is that the car can’t be driven any real distance for a “day’s driving”. It simply can’t. You can take it to the movies or a play and a restaurant. It’s not leaving the city.
I haven’t seen your cite so maybe you could be a little less full of your opinion until then.
Sorry but your purchasing decision is right in line with what I said about target market buyers. It lacks the utility value I said it lacked. It’s a great car for other people to buy. My sales predictions were accurate. Yours were not. That you keep trying to call me out on it is BS.
The Tesla S can’t be driven any real distance?? Oh this gets absurd.
The Tesla is a car outside most price points (certainly mine) and won’t be taken on many cross country road trips. The company still hasn’t made any money and may never. There are realistic doubts as to whether their approach can deliver real mass market EV. All true. But not fast enough for the highway? Needs to recharged after a single time going all out? Not enough range for a day’s driving? Oh come on.
Nope. Not how it works. Not my job to disprove a claim you made; it’s your job to support it. Or not. So far not. So far the one cite you offer does not support the claim you made. A concept that I think must come from old movies of rich people living on secluded estates. Gatsby style. Most of the average automobile commuters daily driving can be handled by the Volt’s range and there is no reason to believe that most potential purchasers of the Volt drive much farther in their daily commutes than do average commuters. Again (cite provided) the super-commuters tend to be less affluent.
You predicted that the Volt would be selling more than half of all models out on the market in its second year of sales? You predicted 16348 vehicles sold year to date end of September? That the EV/PHEV segment’s growth would outpace the initial growth of the hybrid segment? Who knew? I made Volt sales predictions? I did not know that either. The things one learns!
My purchasing decision is for a PHEV with a smaller battery because that battery is still large enough to cover my daily commute in EV-only mode. Why carry a heavier and bulkier one around if I don’t need it most days? Right-sizing, especially given the unknown and unquantified risk of having to replace a battery outside of its 8 year/100K warranty someday. I also chose the car with comfortable enough seating for 5 and more ability to carry stuff when needed. That’s the utility that the Volt does not have for my needs. And that’s where I think they made a demographic miss. But my take on the demographics is just an IMHO.
Not as a sports car which is how it’s sold. And not as a day-trip kind of car. The owner of this car has to calculate whether or not the car can make a given trip.
Yes that’s how it works. I provided a cite, you didn’t. So you’re challenge is crap without a cite.
Yes I predicted the car wouldn’t sell and you said it would.
You waved the Volt flag like it was God’s gift to car buyers and then you bought something else. You know damn well that GM had to revise it’s meager sales figures down and then couldn’t meet those numbers.
uh huh. you’re purchase decision included the fear of replacing the battery. Nice. You exercised the same purchasing decisions discussed in this thread.
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If you think the Tesla’s range and performance do not count as a sports car and real distance, you are welcome to believe that. Seriously.
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If you want to believe that you provided a cite that shows in America, heck that anywhere, “the affluent” drive significantly farther each day than do the Middle Class, you are welcome to believe that. You are also welcome to believe that it is my job to match your non-cite with a cite. Go for it.
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The Volt is selling. No, not as well as GM had projected but again, better than the median vehicle. No its no Camry. But steadily increasing. Once again the segment is growing healthily, better than hybrids were doing at this point.
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My position has always been that there is a place for electric vehicles and that long term they will sell well. It has been that sales will be small until the cost of owning a car powered by the grid is less than owning one powered primarily by gas within a few years payback time. OTOH I have stated that my belief is that over the next decade battery prices are highly to decrease while gas prices are likely to remain volatile and to overall increase. (Yes I know you believe otherwise.) If you’ve ever read me as predicting that GM’s projection would be accurate then you’ve been forgetting to take your meds again my friend.
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If you’ve ever read me as planning on the Volt for myself you are similarly delusional. I had expected to seriously consider the Leaf but it underwhelmed me in person.
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I have always been conscious that there is a risk of having to replace a battery. Given that I see an advantage of EVs as being that they should otherwise have less wear and tear than ICEs and should last for 20 years/200K plus, I’ve always factored in that replacing the pack once outside of warranty is probable and have gone with the experts’ best guess than prices should be down to about $200/kWh by then.
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Yes, I am buying car that will be primarily powered by grid derived power and that has a battery the right size for my needs with the capacity to travel farther when needed. Yes, I think that is nice too.
1-I do. it’s a really great car for people who live on a small island and have nowhere to go.
2-I did, you didn’t
3-It’s not and the dismal sales figures show it
4-there is a place - in the future when they make it viable enough to buy - it will sell well
5-you’re reason not to buy is shared by others who don’t buy it
6-K
7-good for you and everybody else who exercised common sense
maybe you might want to read your cites first. It was a breakdown by race and it was done in a narrow location (Atlanta region).
If you bothered to read my cite you would see that people trend toward closer locations to work when it’s doable but statistically it’s the higher income that is willing to travel farther.
I haven’t read past this post, so maybe someone else has commented on the obvious flaw in your scenario. I won’t spoil the surprise for you, I’ll just say this: people choose to do x or y based on their relative incentives for doing x or y. So, in your scenario, if lots of people had electric cars, what else do you think lots of people may also have?
well the obvious answer is dead batteries when the power goes out. They certainly aren’t going to have spare batteries and it would take a hefty generator to charge the car and keep the house going.