# Are elite male sports actually "open" competitions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761 "2023-01-25T03:48:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/1 "2023-01-25T03:48:20Z")
Are the elite male competitions in major professional sports generally fully “open” or do they have rules saying they are open only for men? I could see it being either way - maybe the rules are gendered, or maybe the rules say nothing and it just works out (as a matter of practice) that such competitions end up being male dominated. I guess it could vary from sport to sport and there is no pattern, but I’d then be interested in what the answer is for various sports. I put this here rather than in the Games Room or GD because I am just looking for the factual answer about what the rules say. My question is prompted by me seeing a debate on related subjects but needless to say this is not the place for debate. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/2 "2023-01-25T03:58:26Z")
Manon Rhéaume was signed by the Tampa Bay Lightning as a goalie and played in a handful of preseason games in 1992 and 1993. Ultimately, she remained only in the minor leagues. The NFL invited Lauren Silberman to a regional combine (not the big one in Indianapolis) as a place kicker. She was given a shot but not signed. A few women have played in Minor League Baseball but none in the majors. I believe rings, parallel bars, pommel horse, and horizontal bar are men only gymnastics by rule at least in the Olympics, but am not sure about that. I don’t know of any other sports where women are excluded from competing against men. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/3 "2023-01-25T04:00:33Z")
And these examples didn’t involve rule changes or exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/4 "2023-01-25T04:34:06Z")
Didn’t Babe Didrickson play in a couple of Open golf tournaments with no rule changes needed? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/5 "2023-01-25T04:43:59Z")
No female has ever been signed in the NFL. However, there is nothing in the rules against it. I poked around a bit online and the general consensus is that the position of kicker is the most likely to be filled first by a female player. There is also no requirement in the NBA that players be male. In 1969, a woman named Denise Long was drafted by the Warriors. Unfortunately, other franchises voided the pick, mostly because of her gender, despite their being no rule against female players. In 1977 a woman named Lusia Harris was drafted by the New Orleans Jazz. To date, she is the only female player to be drafted into the NBA. She was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame in 1992. > **[Lusia Harris, only woman drafted by NBA team, dies | NBA.com](https://www.nba.com/news/lusia-harris-only-woman-drafted-by-nba-team-dies)** > > Lusia Harris was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame in 1992 as the first Black woman to earn that honor. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/6 "2023-01-25T05:07:09Z")
I know you’re looking for rules, but it’s easier to identify women who have succeeded at the elite level and infer that the rules allow it (or were changed to allow it) in these sports. These are all at elite level. Obviously: > **[Danica Patrick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danica_Patrick)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > > Danica Sue Patrick (/ˈdænɪkə/; born March 25, 1982) is an American former professional racing driver. She is the most successful woman in the history of American open-wheel car racing—her victory in the 2008 Indy Japan 300 is the only win by a woman in an IndyCar Series race. > Born to a working-class family in Beloit, Wisconsin, Patrick began karting at the age of ten and achieved early success by winning her class in the World Karting Associa... And several others: > **[Vicki Golden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicki_Golden)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > Vicki Golden (born July 28, 1992 in San Diego, California) is an American professional Freestyle Motocross rider and the first female team member of Metal mulisha, Since beginning her career in 2000 Golden has won three consecutive gold medals in Women's Moto X Racing at the X Games. She is also the first woman to compete in a freestyle Moto X competition, earning the bronze medal in the best whip category. She currently rides a Suzuki 450/250 mot... > **[Fabiola da Silva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabiola_da_Silva)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > Fabiola da Silva (born June 18, 1979 in São Paulo), nicknamed Fabby, is a Brazilian professional vert skater who competes on the LG Action Sports World Tour. She has received over fifty medals in the LG Action Sports World Tour events. She has received seven X Games gold medals and one silver, making her the most decorated female athlete in X Games history. In a seven-year stretch, she only lost one X Games event, finishing second in 1999. > She ha... > **[Handball: all you need to know about Mireia Rodriguez, the first woman to...](https://blazetrends.com/handball-all-you-need-to-know-about-mireia-rodriguez-the-first-woman-to-play-with-men/)** > > Mireia Rodriguez became the first woman to join a men's handball team in Spain on Saturday. In Albacete, the 31-year-old handball player, whose story has > **[Libby Riddles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Riddles)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > Libby Riddles (born April 1, 1956) is an American dog musher, and the first woman to win the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race. > Riddles was born in Madison, Wisconsin, to Willard and Mary Riddles, and moved to Alaska (from Minnesota; she had been living in St. Joseph while attending Apollo High School in St. Cloud) just before her 17th birthday. She saw a sprint race and fell in love with mushing. Her first race was the Clines Mini Mart Sprint race in... And I think you must count this one: > **[Sonya Thomas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonya_Thomas)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > Sonya Thomas (born Lee Sun-kyung on July 26, 1967), also known by her nickname The Black Widow, and "The Leader of the Four Horsemen of the Esophagus", is a South Korean-born American competitive eater from Alexandria, Virginia. Thomas joined the International Federation of Competitive Eating in 2003 and quickly rose to the top of the ranks, beating competitive eaters such as Eric Booker. > Her nickname "The Black Widow" refers to her ability to... ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/7 "2023-01-25T05:29:04Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > [Danica Patrick - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danica_Patrick) Danica has a truly impressive record to be sure, but the first woman to compete in NASCAR races happened in the 1940s. Danica wasn’t exactly a trail blazer in that respect, though to be fair it still is very much a male dominated sport and Danica did face a lot of pushback due to her gender. This article has a lot of good info: > **[List of female NASCAR drivers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_NASCAR_drivers)** > > The following is a list of female NASCAR drivers who have participated in a national or regional touring series race since the organization's inception in 1949, along with statistical totals for their NASCAR careers. While some female NASCAR drivers have transitioned or attempted to transition from open-wheel racing and sports car racing (such as Sarah Fisher, Janet Guthrie, Danica Patrick, and Katherine Legge), most have climbed the stock-car racing ladder (such as Tammy Jo Kirk, Johanna Long,... This article is mostly opinion, but it does bring up some interesting points: > **[Does NASCAR Have a Love/Hate Relationship With Women?](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/112335-does-nascar-have-a-lovehate-relationship-with-women)** > > Stock car racing and women: it’s always been an interesting and somewhat confusing relationship. Racing has been a predominantly male sport, getting its start in the moonshine ... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/8 "2023-01-25T06:09:59Z")
There are always going to be gender, racial, religious, sexual-orientation etc. prejudices everywhere you go. Nevertheless, elite male sports are as close to a pure meritocracy as you can find. If you have great hands, run a 3.9 in the forty-yard dash, have impeccable route-running and a higher vertical leap than anyone, then any NFL head coach would be a fool not to sign you as a wide receiver just because you’re Arab/a woman/atheist/albino/Muslim/gay/whatever. It would be his loss, and at least some of the other 31 head coaches would be bound to be interested in what you could do for their team. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/9 "2023-01-25T06:16:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > elite male sports are as close to a pure meritocracy that you can find Your arguments are true of team sports. But the opposite is true of individual sports. No individual competitor has any selfish interest in widening the field, and for macho men the prospect of being beaten by a woman isn’t going to be an appealing one. However, I think governing bodies and broadcasters (i.e. advertisers) are usually going to favor admitting as diverse a field as possible. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/10 "2023-01-25T06:20:08Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > No female has ever been signed in the NFL. However, there is nothing in the rules against it. I poked around a bit online and the general consensus is that the position of kicker is the most likely to be filled first by a female player. While none have yet made it to the NFL, a number of them (mostly kickers) have played in college ball (several of them in Division I), and a few have played in lower-level professional leagues, as per the lists in this Wikipedia article. (In 2015, I worked several games as the scoreboard operator and assistant statkeeper for the Chicago Blitz of the American Indoor Football league; their kicker, Julie Harshbarger, was the league’s special-teams player of the year.) > **[List of female American football players](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_American_football_players)** > > Women's gridiron football (including American football and Canadian football) is a form of the sport played by women. Most leagues in the United States, such as the Women's Football Alliance, play by rules similar to men's tackle football. Although women's flag football is emerging as a collegiate sport, women playing gridiron football at the college level have historically joined men's teams, often (though not exclusively) as placekickers. > The following is a list of some of the most notable... ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/11 "2023-01-25T06:34:35Z")
Horse racing is one sport where women are able to compete with men on their own merits. Years ago, female jockeys were a novelty, now it is common to see several in a race. Last year I saw a country meeting where every winner was ridden by a female rider. Most runners in each race one. Leading Melbourne jockey Jamie Kah is long odds on to win another premiership. I have been following the races for a long time and she is simply one of the best that I have ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/12 "2023-01-25T06:48:31Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > There is also no requirement in the NBA that players be male. In 1969, a woman named Denise Long was drafted by the Warriors. Unfortunately, other franchises voided the pick, mostly because of her gender, despite their being no rule against female players. In 1977 a woman named Lusia Harris was drafted by the New Orleans Jazz. To date, she is the only female player to be drafted into the NBA. She was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame in 1992. In addition to Harris: - Ann Meyers signed a contract with the Indiana Pacers in 1980, and participated in several days of tryouts, but did not make the team. - Nancy Lieberman played for the Los Angeles Lakers’ “summer team” in 1981, then played two seasons (1986 and 1987) with the United States Basketball League, a “developmental” men’s basketball league. ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/13 "2023-01-25T06:49:09Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Your arguments are true of team sports. But the opposite is true of individual sports. No individual competitor has any selfish interest in widening the field, and for macho men the prospect of being beaten by a woman isn’t going to be an appealing one. Are there any examples of elite male athletes seeking to exclude women from eligibility? In general it does not seem that individual competitors have much influence on rules governing eligibility. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/14 "2023-01-25T08:27:42Z")
I really don’t want this to creep over into a debate, or into a discussion about what (non-rule) forces (social, physical etc) stand in non-males’ way, or what coaches or other players might want. I was really just interested in whether by the rules, elite “men’s” events are technically and legally just “open” events, albeit that it is only ever men that enter. Many of the sports so far are sports where there has never been much of a segregated tradition. Anyone know what the rules position is for say golf or tennis or Olympic track events, where there is a history of strong but separate men’s and women’s competitions? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/15 "2023-01-25T12:11:37Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > golf Yes, women have played on the men’s PGA tour. There are no rules in place prohibiting them. > **[Has a Woman Ever Played on the PGA Tour?](https://www.golflink.com/tour-golf/has-a-woman-ever-played-on-the-pga-tour)** > > The PGA Tour is widely accepted as the most lucrative golf tour, which also leads to it being the most competitive golf tour on the planet. While many would assume that the PGA Tour was a men’s only tour, there are in fact no gender requirements for... ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/16 "2023-01-25T12:30:23Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Are the elite male competitions in major professional sports generally fully “open” or do they have rules saying they are open only for men? The most important “rule” in professional sports is, “Win!”, and owners will sign anyone they think will help them do it. Unfortunately, as the old saying goes, “size matters”, and men generally have significantly more size and strength than their female counterparts. I adore football and, thanks to my dad and my brother, I have a pretty sophisticated understanding of the game. Unfortunately, I don’t have the physical requirements necessary to compete with the gridiron warriors I’d be facing. A massive defensive lineman or linebacker would run right over me or, better yet, he could save energy by simply picking me up and hurling me like a missile at the quarterback. Ow! ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/17 "2023-01-25T13:14:35Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Horse racing is one sport where women are able to compete with men on their own merits. Not only horse racing, but also dressing, jumping and military. As long as I can remember (I’m 54) there have been women competing in these categories and often winning Olympic competitions and other international championships. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/18 "2023-01-25T13:34:44Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Anyone know what the rules position is for say golf or tennis or Olympic track events, where there is a history of strong but separate men’s and women’s competitions? Men and women directly compete in trailrunning and ultramarathoning. Their results are divided into men’s and women’s fields, but runners of both sexes are on the same course at the same time. And the final results are given both as the runner’s place within his or her field, and overall. In general, of course, men are faster than the women, but that’s only looking at the sexes in aggregate; there are plenty of speedy women who beat the majority of men. Out of a field of 208 runners in the 2021 Western States Endurance Run, three of the top 10, and nine of the top 20 overall finishers, were women. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/19 "2023-01-25T14:20:30Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > > > Horse racing is one sport where women are able to compete with men on their own merits. > > Not only horse racing, but also dressing, jumping and military. As long as I can remember (I’m 54) there have been women competing in these categories and often winning Olympic competitions and other international championships. And there’s no rule saying male and female horses can’t run in the same race. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/20 "2023-01-25T14:37:45Z")
True, but they don’t carry the same weight. A colt in the Kentucky Derby carries 126 pounds. A filly carries 121. While it might be possible for a filly or mare to carry more or the same weight than a colt or horse, it would require conditions that make up for the baseline weight difference. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761.md?page=2)