# Are elite male sports actually "open" competitions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761 "2023-01-25T03:48:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/21 "2023-01-25T15:05:01Z")
I think beyond that, even women that are the right height and build aren’t likely to have the right amount of muscle in order to play the game at an elite level. I mean, just look at the shotput. Olympic men are putting a 16 lb/7.25 kg steel shot in the 21-23 meters range( 68 to not quite 75 feet). Meanwhile, the world’s best women are putting a shot that’s a bit over half the weight(8.8 lbs/4 kg), and their range is somewhere between 17.5 and 21 meters / 58-68 feet. So they’re putting 60% of the weight 88% as far as the men. And those are women who have put in a LOT of training to do that, and they’re just nowhere close to the men. In fact, that’s probably about where high school boys would be, _ **IF** _ they used 4 kilo shots. But they’re using 12 lb/5.4 kg shots and putting them in the 55-65 range at high levels of competition. That’s not to cast any aspersions on the women’s effort or performance, it’s just a matter of fact. Men are _considerably_ stronger than women are on the whole, and that’s why there are separate competitions. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/22 "2023-01-25T15:29:27Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Men and women directly compete in trailrunning and ultramarathoning. Yes, women are a long way behind men in any kind of sport that involves strength and most that involve cardiovascular output, but men and women do start to converge at ultra-endurance events. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/23 "2023-01-25T15:44:16Z")
The question is too broad to be answered specifically. Few elite sports are actually designated as “male”. Something like elite pro basketball may just have men in it, but it is not designated as “men only” in the same way that “Men’s Swimming” is. The elite pro sports have the top players, and those competitors are almost exclusively men because of the higher athletic ability of men. If a there were women who could play at the same elite level, then they could join many elite sports since there is typically not a gender restriction. But a woman likely wouldn’t be able to compete in “Men’s Swimming” no matter how good she was since the sport has a gender restriction. If there was a sports league for elite swimming similar to the NBA (e.g. NSA), then a woman could probably join that if she was competitive at that level. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/24 "2023-01-25T15:47:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > Men and women directly compete in trailrunning and ultramarathoning. > > Yes, women are a long way behind men in any kind of sport that involves strength and most that involve cardiovascular output, but men and women do start to converge at ultra-endurance events. - There’s still quite a gap even at extreme distances. > **[Ultramarathon | IAU World Record performances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon#IAU_World_Record_performances)** > > Until 2014, the IAU maintained lists of the world best performances on different surfaces (road, track, and indoor). Starting in 2015, the distinction between the surfaces was removed and the records were combined into a single category. Some governing bodies continue to keep separate ultramarathon track and road records for their jurisdictions. > Starting in January 2022, the IAU began to recognize and ratify performances as IAU World Records. World Athletics also began to ratify the 50k distance... On ultra trail runs, I would conjecture that since women weigh less, there’s less mass to haul uphill and less pounding on the downhill. Plus the ultra trail running community is relatively small and it’s likely the talent curve does not match the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/25 "2023-01-25T17:48:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > > [@Riemann](#): > > > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > > > Men and women directly compete in trailrunning and ultramarathoning. > > > > Yes, women are a long way behind men in any kind of sport that involves strength and most that involve cardiovascular output, but men and women do start to converge at ultra-endurance events. - > > There’s still quite a gap even at extreme distances. > [Ultramarathon - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon#IAU_World_Record_performances) > > On ultra trail runs, I would conjecture that since women weigh less, there’s less mass to haul uphill and less pounding on the downhill. > Plus the ultra trail running community is relatively small and it’s likely the talent curve does not match the general population True, but the point is, men and women are not segregated by sex in an ultra; per the OP’s question, it’s an “open” competition. It’s very unlikely that a top woman - Courtney Dauwalter or Beth Pascall, say - could beat a top man like Jim Walmsley or François D’haene; but not because the rules deny her the opportunity. And ultrarunning is the sport where it would be the least surprising if she did. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/26 "2023-01-25T19:31:06Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > I believe rings, parallel bars, pommel horse, and horizontal bar are men only gymnastics by rule at least in the Olympics, but am not sure about that. Right, and balance beam and uneven bars are women-only, whereas everyone does the vault and floor exercises. Are there other sports that have this level of segregation? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/27 "2023-01-25T19:37:46Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Are there other sports that have this level of segregation? In modern competitive fencing, until the last couple of decades, men competed in three different events, with different weapons (foil, epee, and sabre), while women only competed in the foil. However, the sport’s organizing bodies added women’s epee and sabre in the '90s and '00s. ---
**Author:** ![a6ka97](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c2a13f/32.png) [@a6ka97](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a6ka97)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/28 "2023-01-25T20:05:54Z")
Pro bowling? It has been awhile since watching it on TV but remember a women’s match that had some scores similar to what I remember men getting. I bowl in a local bowling alley. In looking at averages of the men’s leagues (5 leagues) quite a few men have averages in the 200s, highest around 225. The 1 women’s league has a couple of bowlers in the low 200s. I disregarded the mixed leagues as they are more recreational. I would think on any given day some of these women could beat the men. One of the better female bowlers in the area would usually place in the top 5 of the “king of the hill” tournaments, don’t know if she actually ever won one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/29 "2023-01-25T20:48:25Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > Are there other sports that have this level of segregation? The men’s and women’s heptathalon are comprised of different events: Mens: 60 metre dash, long jump, shot put, high jump, 60 metre hurdles, pole vault, 1000 meters Womens: 100 metre hurdles, high jump, shot put, 200 metres, long jump, javelin, 800 metres Men’s is usually held indoors, women’s is usually held outdoors. For outdoor competitions, men typically compete in the decathalon instead. Indoors, women compete in the pentathalon. Overall, the combined track and field events can be considered a single class of competion with different disciplines for men and women. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/30 "2023-01-25T23:00:46Z")
Kelly Kulick won the 2010 PBA Tournament of Champions and I’m pretty sure other women made it to the semifinals before that ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/31 "2023-01-25T23:19:57Z")
Until recently, shooting and sailing allowed both sexes in the same (individual) event at the Summer Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/32 "2023-01-26T10:43:17Z")
Minor nitpick - Men’s floor and women’s floor are slightly different events - women use music in their routines and that plays a part in their ‘artistic’ score. I would say that diving might be an athletic event where women could compete reasonably against men. Both sexes seem to perform exactly the same dives with very few differences in ‘how they look’. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/33 "2023-01-26T11:14:18Z")
Thanks to those who have attempted to answer my actual question. As I’m reading it, there are no examples given so far of any sport where something labelled a “men’s competition” is actually open. There are examples (eg PGA) where sports that might be _assumed_ to be men’s competitions (simply based on who normally competes) are open. And there are examples of sports that are ungendered (eg equestrian) I made an attempt at finding the relevant rules for Grand Slam tennis tournaments but without success. The rules I found seem to assume there will be a men’s and women’s competition, but I couldn’t find any rules about who can enter as such. Very likely I’m just not finding the relevant document. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/34 "2023-01-26T14:03:02Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As I’m reading it, there are no examples given so far of any sport where something labelled a “men’s competition” is actually open I don’t think there will be one - in my experience (which is with bowling) the mere fact that women are accepted means it is not called a “men’s” event even if it was previously . There might be an open event and a corresponding women’s event - for example an open championship tournament and a women’s championship tournament and sometimes there are separate men’s, women’s and mixed events but I’ve never seen a “men’s” event that women could enter. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/35 "2023-01-26T20:26:07Z")
The general rule of thumb is that because of hormones, men have much more muscle development and particularly a lot more upper body strength than women. Of course, the women who excel in professional sports are outliers in this regard, but then they would be competing with men who are also outliers. So the obvious question was whether the musculature makes a difference versus skill or endurance. It seems obvious that while for example, horse jumping would not be a sport for couch potatoes, it does not require outlier muscle strength. The other obvious exclusion, the other way, would be outright contact sports - boxing and wrestling come to mind (MMA too?). There would likely be exclusions based on sex simply based on the traditional view against men getting physical with women. The exception for hockey mentioned a woman playing goalie, which is the one player excluded from physical contact. However, there have been plenty of instances of girls playing on boys’ hockey teams at the age when hormones don’t create a physical differential between the genders. Sometimes this came about because of the lack of challenging opportunities for some girls in the community, and sometimes after significant disputes with the organization. (And if I recall, the younger hockey leagues have specific rules against checking the other player and other strong collision physical contact - or fighting.) There might be a niche opportunity for women in pro soccer since they have much practice at faking it. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/36 "2023-01-26T20:31:35Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > There might be a niche opportunity for women in pro soccer since they have much practice at faking it. Who faked what now? Seriously confused. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/37 "2023-01-26T20:36:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As I’m reading it, there are no examples given so far of any sport where something labelled a “men’s competition” is actually open. Agreed. In most cases (particularly in high-level competitions like major professional sports leagues), it’s more a matter of there being few women who may be capable of being competitive, from a physical and athletic standpoint, with the men who are participating in those sports, rather than a formal rule prohibiting it. There’s also likely a level of old-fashioned sexism at work, too. While I was writing up my earlier response in the thread about Nancy Lieberman and Ann Meyers (top female basketball players, both of whom had brief tryouts with NBA teams), I found a video interview that Larry King conducted with Lieberman a few years ago. She discussed how Lakers management was eager to give her a full tryout, but then, their then-new coach, Pat Riley, made it clear to her that he had no interest in having a woman on his team. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Szd8Qnx0lPM/hqdefault.jpg "Nancy Lieberman tried out for the Lakers") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szd8Qnx0lPM) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/38 "2023-01-26T22:18:31Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Seriously confused. A faking orgasm joke, I think. ETA: just a guess, as I’ve had no experience with it ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/39 "2023-01-26T22:21:20Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > A faking orgasm joke, I think. Ah, now I got it. A very lame joke I must say, disparaging both women and the sport of football (soccer). But whatever floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761/40 "2023-01-26T22:25:36Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > ETA: just a guess, as I’ve had no experience with it Nice recovery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-elite-male-sports-actually-open-competitions/978761.md?page=3)