# are employers required to offer overtime to all employees? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924 "2010-07-16T15:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/21 "2018-11-28T13:23:51Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > Thread split off: I wondered why the last poster (post #10) to the original thread was banned after such a productive number of posts. IIRC he got into trouble with Dolly, or maybe it was Billy; either way one thing I know for sure, not me! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/22 "2018-11-28T13:38:37Z")
The only thing that is certain is that overtime cannot ever be compulsory - there are a number of test cases that have defined the attempt to impose compulsory overtime as a breach of the human right of self determination. Sanctions for not undertaking so called ‘voluntary overtime’ are also considered a breach of the right to self determination. Trouble is that in the labour market, you may well be in the right be declining overtime, but reality is that this is cold comfort when you are terminated for some other reason - even if you do win your case in court. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/23 "2018-11-28T15:53:33Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > The only thing that is certain is that overtime cannot ever be compulsory - there are a number of test cases that have defined the attempt to impose compulsory overtime as a breach of the human right of self determination. > > Sanctions for not undertaking so called ‘voluntary overtime’ are also considered a breach of the right to self determination. > > Trouble is that in the labour market, you may well be in the right be declining overtime, but reality is that this is cold comfort when you are terminated for some other reason - even if you do win your case in court. Do you have a cite for this? Everything I’ve ever heard or read about labor laws notes that overtime must be compensated for non-exempt personnel, but that companies are free to require overtime from employees, although some states put maximums on the amount of time per week that can be required (72 hours per week in California, for instance.) ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/24 "2018-11-28T16:11:45Z")
Think about it, compulsory overtime is in effect forced labour, doesn’t matter is it is paid or not ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/25 "2018-11-28T16:15:30Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > Thread split off: I wondered why the last poster (post #10) to the original thread was banned after such a productive number of posts. I still don’t know but one of the last threads he was in was titled “Firefox 5 already?” As I sit here using Firefox 52.9. > > Dennis > [@Chronos](#): > > Questions like that are best suited for PM to a moderator, as we don’t like to re-open old wounds in public. Or in this case you could just search for the poster’s name in thread titles in ATMB, since the banning was announced. But you should not ask about bannings publicly. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/26 "2018-11-28T16:36:54Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Think about it, compulsory overtime is in effect forced labour, doesn’t matter is it is paid or not :dubious: Similarly, a 40 hour week “is in effect forced labour, doesn’t matter is it is paid or not”. > [@](#): > > Yes, your employer can force you to work overtime and can terminate you if you refuse to work the mandatory overtime. The FLSA does not set a maximum amount of hours that a employer is allowed to have their employees work. [From here.](https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/forced-overtime.html) ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/27 "2018-11-28T16:52:26Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Think about it, compulsory overtime is in effect forced labour, doesn’t matter is it is paid or not It really isn’t, nobody is forcing you to work for that or any other employer. Companies are free to create rules or policies as long as they don’t violate labour laws (like overtime in excess of X hours…), and you are free to follow them and continue working for that company or not follow them and seek employment elsewhere… or not work at all. Plenty of companies have standard 10-12 hour shifts and pay overtime accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/28 "2018-11-28T19:42:25Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > Thread split off: I wondered why the last poster (post #10) to the original thread was banned after such a productive number of posts. I still don’t know but one of the last threads he was in was titled “Firefox 5 already?” As I sit here using Firefox 52.9. > > Dennis [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616839&highlight=markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616839&highlight=markxxx) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/29 "2018-11-28T20:48:01Z")
The OP’s subject requirement would be a rather strange one. Picture a company that is having a new CNC lathe delivered on Friday, and needs a couple of its machinists to work over the weekend to get it set up and tested for Monday. Simple. Now imagine that to do this legally they must also offer weekend overtime to the HR staff, the graphic design department and the sales force. ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/30 "2018-11-28T23:32:29Z")
There’s a lot to unpack here. First, it depends on what laws apply to your situation. Which state are you in? What local laws apply? Does the Fair Labor Standards Act apply to your employer? Is your employer a government entity with a different set of rules? Second, it depends on some subtle factors. If your employer is a private company, subject to FLSA, and you make less than a certain amount and you’re not a supervisor, then they are required to pay you for overtime that you work. BUT (and this is a pretty big but) if they told you not to work the overtime and you did it anyway, they are free to retaliate against you (by docking your pay, for example) as long as such retaliation doesn’t make your effective hourly wage fall below the minimum wage. According to the FLSA: Can they tell you that not to work any overtime? Yes. If you disobey and work overtime anyway, can they refuse to pay you? No. Can they punish you financially for disobeying? Yes, unless you’re only making minimum wage already in which case, No. But they could still fire you, or reduce your hours, or schedule you to work an unpleasant shift, like 3 am to 6 am. FWIW, the vast majority of private businesses are subject to FLSA. Basically, if your employer does any business across a state line, either buying or selling, then it’s probably subject to FLSA (unless it’s a government entity). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/31 "2018-11-28T23:50:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The OP’s subject requirement would be a rather strange one. > > Picture a company that is having a new CNC lathe delivered on Friday, and needs a couple of its machinists to work over the weekend to get it set up and tested for Monday. Simple. > > Now imagine that to do this legally they must also offer weekend overtime to the HR staff, the graphic design department and the sales force. The OP wasn’t talking about offering overtime to the HR staff when painting needed to be done .It was pretty clear in the OP that his objection was that only a few employees out of a whole crew doing the same work were offered overtime. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/32 "2018-11-29T03:36:49Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > There’s a lot to unpack here. > > First, it depends on what laws apply to your situation. Which state are you in? What local laws apply? Does the Fair Labor Standards Act apply to your employer? Is your employer a government entity with a different set of rules? > > Second, it depends on some subtle factors. If your employer is a private company, subject to FLSA, and you make less than a certain amount and you’re not a supervisor, then they are required to pay you for overtime that you work. BUT (and this is a pretty big but) if they told you not to work the overtime and you did it anyway, they are free to retaliate against you (by docking your pay, for example) as long as such retaliation doesn’t make your effective hourly wage fall below the minimum wage. > > According to the FLSA: Can they tell you that not to work any overtime? Yes. If you disobey and work overtime anyway, can they refuse to pay you? No. Can they punish you financially for disobeying? Yes, unless you’re only making minimum wage already in which case, No. But they could still fire you, or reduce your hours, or schedule you to work an unpleasant shift, like 3 am to 6 am. > > FWIW, the vast majority of private businesses are subject to FLSA. Basically, if your employer does any business across a state line, either buying or selling, then it’s probably subject to FLSA (unless it’s a government entity). I did the payroll for a company that was hit with some major fines for not following FLSA laws, which they were unaware they were subject to. I don’t recall all the requirements, but the guidelines salaried non-exempt employees were very specific. If a non-exempt employee recorded overtime hours, the first thing I did was check with their manager if it was known and authorized. if it wasn’t, it was paid, but marked as a negative disciplinary action, potentially adding up to termination. The justification not only for the failure to follow directions, but inability to perform their duties in a timely manner. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/33 "2018-11-29T04:04:49Z")
When I worked hourly for an inventory company, there were four levels of workers (not counting team leaders); new hires, regulars (been there say, 3-6 months), veterans (i.e. those that have been at it for years) and top guns (those who where the fastest and accurate). During the busy season (early in the year) the veterans and top guns could work for days on end, switching from job to job with little or no sleep, racking up the OT. If a job took 2-3 days (e.g. Sears), the new hires might work the first 8 hours, the regulars work 16 hours and the veterans and top guns continue until the end of the job. It was cheaper and more efficient (less recounts and less time spend at the location) to pay the top two tiers OT than having to recount/redo the work the bottom two tiers did. Also, everyone, even the top guns were allowed only a certain percentage of errors. If they exceeded that percentage, they’d be sent home or to another job. Timeliness was critical, especially for stores that closed for inventory and since the jobs were obtained by bids (which could often be at a known loss, because the stores are chain) keeping pay within the budget was crucial. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/34 "2018-11-29T13:52:27Z")
> [@what\_up](#): > > Answer me this then I’m full time there’s a casual employee who gets 16 hours overtime a week I’m luck if I get offered any, surely it’s got to be offered to permanent/ full-time employees first right? The question of “whether they should” or “whether they must” has been answered already (“No”). But as to why they would offer a temporary worker over time versus an established full-time worker, I can think of several reasons: 1. The casual employee is getting the extra hours but is not already working 40 - so fewer of those 16 hours would require time and a half (e.g. normally works 30, so now doing 46, and only 6 require overtime pay, while you’d be working 56, of which all 16 require overtime) 2. The casual employee’s rate is lower than yours - so the overtime costs the company less 3. The boss knows something about the casual employee’s situation and is trying to help him out (family ill / needs money / something else) 4. The boss is giving inappropriate preference to the casual employee (friend / family / has something to hold over the boss). 5. They like the casual guy’s work more than yours ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/35 "2018-11-29T13:56:57Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > The OP wasn’t talking about offering overtime to the HR staff when painting needed to be done .It was pretty clear in the OP that his objection was that only a few employees out of a whole crew doing the same work were offered overtime. I think it is quite apt. Not all members of the crew are completely identical. A manager knows who’s better at what and is free to make decisions based on such criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/36 "2018-11-29T14:42:34Z")
> [@what\_up](#): > > Answer me this then I’m full time there’s a casual employee who gets 16 hours overtime a week I’m luck if I get offered any, surely it’s got to be offered to permanent/ full-time employees first right? If “overtime” means _hours worked over 40 hrs in a week_, and “casual employee” means _employees who work less than 40 hours per week_, then either they are not casual employees or they are not working overtime. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/37 "2018-11-29T16:41:30Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > I did not read the above ‘answers’ thoroughly, so I might be repeating something. IME, overtime can be denied if a certain type company has a number of employees below a specified amount. I worked a few months with a landscaping/lawn-care company long ago in Austin, and my last week with this person/employer (did all the Sonic Drive-Ins, KFC’s, Pizza Huts, and a few other chains and some residential work) we worked close to 100 hours in 6 hot-as-hell days, being told we were getting a huge amount of overtime pay. Only when we were paid straight-time did he tell us that he was NOT required to pay overtime whatsoever -\> Take it or leave it". I left as it was only temporary anyways, and another fellow stole all his mowers that night, I heard (LOLOLOL). Sorry-ass mofo, in hindsight, that deserved what he got, imho 😉 > > Another person tried to ‘report’ him to the proper enforcement agency (forget name of it) and was told that type of business was definitely exempt of overtime laws of any kind. It was a ‘labor job’ if it matters, no contract or such. I _think_ that some businesses are exempt if they do not employ a certain number of persons - but it has been a LONG time since I heard that, fwiw (mid-80’s??) The FLSA doesn’t apply to businesses whose gross revenue is less than $500,000.00, unless they are affecting interstate commerce. A landscaping company which works only in one state probably doesn’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/38 "2018-11-29T17:14:16Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > If “overtime” means _hours worked over 40 hrs in a week_ Overtime can also mean more than 8 or 12 hours in a work day depending on the jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/39 "2018-11-29T23:38:09Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I very much doubt there was such an exemption under the rules at the time either :dubious:; it sounds like you & your coworkers just accepted management’s line and nobody complained to the authorities or someone who might know better (like a parent). Movie theaters are exempt from having to pay overtime. USC Title 29: 213 (b) (27) > [@](#): > > any employee employed by an establishment which is a motion picture theater; or ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924/40 "2018-12-29T15:42:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The FLSA doesn’t apply to businesses whose gross revenue is less than $500,000.00, unless they are affecting interstate commerce. A landscaping company which works only in one state probably doesn’t qualify. One could argue that, if the landscaping company buys anything (e.g. fertilizer or tools) that were shipped across a state line, they are participating in interstate commerce, hence the FLSA actually **does** apply to them. If that sounds like a stretch, keep in mind that the courts once ruled that growing wheat in your own back yard, for personal consumption, fell under the umbrella of “interstate commerce”, because it had the net effect of lowering wheat prices for farmers in other states. A small company might try to justify underpaying their employees by saying, “FLSA doesn’t apply to us.” And they could probably get away with it for years or decades. But if an employee sued for unpaid wages, the employee would have a strong case and the employer would be wise to just step up and comply with the law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-employers-required-to-offer-overtime-to-all-employees/546924.md?page=3)